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Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

jar546

jar546

CBO
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
12,723
Location
Not where I really want to be
Who can solve this problem?

Homeowners want them, they are not code compliant for separation into the common attic space of this attached garage. Does anyone know of a company that makes a fire rated assembly?

IMG_1566.JPG
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

That looks like a standard 250 lb. max weight ladder. Please tell me there isn't a water heater up there.

Uncle Bob
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

I don't know who the company is but there is one who makes the exposed plywood on the garage side with fire retardant to meet the code requirement so don't let them tell you that it's not available.
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Agree with bldginsp. Don't remember the company either, but there is at least one.

Also... Is there just a storage attic up there? If so (I believe) you can establish the seperation at the wall between the attic and the remainder of the dwelling by continuing the wall rating up to the underside of the roof deck. Just a thought... ;)
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

I'm with JD - keep the attics separate, continue the separation wall to the deck, and don't forget to analyze attic ventilation separately for the two spaces.
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Could you install a piece of 5/8" firex drywall to the underside of the ladder when its closed?
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Off topic how about insulated attic ladders for above conditioned space?
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Insulation on attic ladders?

I saw this in the 09 IECC, I don't recall seeing it in any of the previous versions.

402.2.3 Access hatches and doors. Access doors from conditioned spaces to unconditioned spaces (e.g., attics and crawl spaces) shall be weatherstripped and insulated to a level equivalent to the insulation on the surrounding surfaces. Access shall be provided to all equipment that prevents damaging or compressing the insulation. A wood framed or equivalent baffle or retainer is required to be provided when loose fill insulation is installed, the purpose of which is to prevent the loose fill insulation from spilling into the living space when the attic access is opened, and to provide a permanent means of maintaining the installed R-value of the loose fill insulation.

So if I have R-38 in my ceiling I now need R-38 on my attic ladder. Looks like the attic ladder designers will have some thinking to do.
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

State of GA amended to call for 3/8 fire retardant plywood for those.

I have OK'd the applied drywall idea, long as the springs hold all the added weight.
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Couldn't the ECCC have just treated it as another fenestration? Like a horizontal window? Factor the U value for it in with the rest of the 'holes' in the walls...
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Pcinspector1 said:
Could you install a piece of 5/8" firex drywall to the underside of the ladder when its closed?
Click to expand...
I have seen this approach tried in the past without any luck.

The springs on the ladder were not strong enough to hold the panel shut with the additional weight of the 5/8" sheetrock.

Chris
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Field modifications to approved products rarely work well. :(

They make rated AND insulated units (though probably not to R-38 :shock: )
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

JB,

You would think the ladder people would apply 3/8" fire-ply to there stairs to start with! At least Georgia's got it covered! :)

Raider1, Just a thought, not suggested in the field, thanks! :idea:
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Could you install a piece of 5/8" firex drywall to the underside of the ladder when its closed?
Click to expand...
Two problems - One as mentioned before is that the springs are not strong enough to support the additional weight....

second, in the hot summers, the springs tend to lose tensile streght due to exposure to heat....... thus the springs sag, in fire conditionds, the springs let go quickly due to heat exposure.....thus leaving the area an open hole for fire/smoke to escape thru
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

If you think you can add drywall to the ladder please provide a tested assembly for such application.

Don't see how you can approve something that hasn't been tested! ?????
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

California adopted the IBC and did not adopt the IRC so 5/8'' type X drywall is only required on a garage ceiling and only if there is habitable space above that ceiling. Of course, the walls holding up that ceiling get the same treatment but if there is no habitable space above, 1/2'' regular drywall is permitted. I don't have a copy of the IRC and I am curious if it requires 5/8'' type X on the wall between the garage and the dwelling.
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Tiger,

Nope, just 1/2" gypsum board applied to the garage side. It requires 5/8" type X on the ceiling if there is habitable space above. In that case, all supporting walls require 1/2" gypsum board.

GPE
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

Thanks GPE,

More fires originate in garages than anywhere else so this is not a good thing. I am still getting a floor to roof sheathing separation with 5/8'' type X. And yes, I know I have no authority to do so. So far, only one contractor has complained. That contractor is building a 500 dwelling tract and I assured him that I had no problem letting people know that he has met the code which is the bare minimum allowed. He quit complaining.
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

RJJ said:
If you think you can add drywall to the ladder please provide a tested assembly for such application.Don't see how you can approve something that hasn't been tested! ?????
Click to expand...
If the IRC does not required a test assembly between the garage and resident why would the attic opening be required to be tested assembly?

Oldman, CBO, MCP, CEAP
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

oldman: you raise a good point! The IRC requires very little, for one. The problem I have is now we are making up a protection device for something that is not proven. How can you approve something that is not tested. Why approve it at all. I don't believe we should be making up stuff just to satisfy our maybe whims!

For me I still require 1hr separation. Been in our code since 51. Even the new state code has not been able to change it. So for me I require a different level. My feeling is the IRC has been watered down to nothing in this area. But if we can make up a procedure why not make up a test. :roll:
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

I guess the pull down stairs could be required to be protected by 1 3/8inch thick doors.

The keyword here is other openings ---- 3 options, door, metallic ductwork, or other penetration (not opening - IMHO)

so here is the applicable section -

Other openings between the garage and residence shall

be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35

mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less

than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

Best option is to run the 5/8" from slab to bottom of roof deck, then I don't care if you sheetrock the roof of the garage or not providing a habitable room (or unfinished bonus room) is not located above - which in that case, wouldn't have a set of pull down stairs in the first place.
 
Re: Garage fire separation and pull down ladders

R309.2 Separation required.The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than ½-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.
Click to expand...
1/2 inch is all that is required not 5/8 inch and not Type X.

Contractors have built a box around the pull down ladder lined with 1/2 sheet rock with a hinged lid on top overed with sheet rock.

Pull down the ladder walk up and push the lid open at the top. Simple solution
 
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