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gas pipe sleeve or not?

ICE

ICE

Oh Well
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
12,915
Location
California
This hole will be filled with concrete for a patio cover footing. I haven't seen the plans but I am told that it is 60" deep and there are five just like it. Two have a gas pipe passing through. Would you allow the gas pipe to remain with a proper sleeve? (4" ABS)

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ICE said:
This hole will be filled with concrete for a patio cover footing. I haven't seen the plans but I am told that it is 60" deep and there are five just like it. Two have a gas pipe passing through. Would you allow the gas pipe to remain with a proper sleeve? (4" ABS)

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would you not consider the columns to be part of the foundation?

IFGC 404 .6
 
Gregg Harris said:
would you not consider the columns to be part of the foundation?

IFGC 404 .6
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Yes I would and that allows for a sleeve. Now a second question. Is a patio cover that is open on three sides considered a building that would require the entire length of pipe to be sleeved.
 
wwhitney said:
Has California adopted the IFGC, or do we just have the CPC Chapter 12?

Cheers, Wayne
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Ca. Has CPC Chapter 12. I see your point about the basement wall but with no building on either side of a patio post footing my concern is the ability to sleeve through concrete. I suppose the argument could be made that the pipe is parallel in a footing.
 
ICE said:
Ca. Has CPC Chapter 12.
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OK, so 1210.1 says "Underground gas piping shall be installed with sufficient clearance from any other underground structure to avoid contact therewith, to allow maintenance, and to protect against damage from proximity to other structures."

Which I would agree precludes encasing it in concrete. But a sleeve through the concrete would seem to me to fit the bill. 4" seems very large for a sleeve, are you expecting 2" of settlement for a patio cover?

Cheers, Wayne
 
The hole we see doesn't appear to be for either a foundation wall or a footing -- it appears to be a rough, earth-formed hole for a pier. A pier is a "foundation," but not a "foundation wall." From the photo, we can't tell if the pipe is parallel to a building foundation wall, or perpendicular to it. (And I don't know if that makes any difference in relation to the question.) If there are two of these holes with the gas pipe running through them, I would guess that the pipe is parallel to the building wall.
 
wwhitney said:
OK, so 1210.1 says "Underground gas piping shall be installed with sufficient clearance from any other underground structure to avoid contact therewith, to allow maintenance, and to protect against damage from proximity to other structures."

Which I would agree precludes encasing it in concrete. But a sleeve through the concrete would seem to me to fit the bill. 4" seems very large for a sleeve, are you expecting 2" of settlement for a patio cover?

Cheers, Wayne
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No settlement is anticipated. Have 4”ABS. What are your thoughts on the patio cover being a building that would require a continuous sleeve?
 
ICE said:
No settlement is anticipated. Have 4”ABS. What are your thoughts on the patio cover being a building that would require a continuous sleeve?
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If it was enclosed on 4 sides I would say yes, but 3 would allow for dilution if a leak were to occur.
 
We have to assume the pipe is proper for burial. But is it proper for the effects of being encased (no sleeve) in concrete, which cures because of a Chemical Process? I don't know the answer. We saw what happens to rebar in Florida

The other concern is they have not Anticipated any settlement! HMMM they are going down 5 ft, no frost/ freezing or differential movement?

And finally, just an open cover, again, not anticipating fully enclosing the space.

We live with ANTICIPATION it seems
 
What is the code section we are trying to meet?.....Good thing everyone will know when they enclose it to go back and sleeve the gas line...
 
I would not encase the subsurface gas pipe in the concrete footing. It can be isolated from the concrete. If the hole is 5 feet deep, how thick should the footing be? Excavate to a depth that keeps the footing concrete below the gas pipe. I assume this is for a residential dwelling, not a commercial or industrial building.
According to the IRC, a building is defined as "Building shall mean any one- and two-family dwelling or portion thereof, including townhouses, that is used, or designed or intended to be used for human habitation, for living, sleeping, cooking or eating purposes, or any combination thereof, and shall include accessory structures thereto." Given this definition, the patio is a building if it is an accessory structure.

The IBC defines a building as "Any structure used or intended for supporting or sheltering any use or occupancy." This definition also supports calling the patio structure a building.
 
I spoke to the city building department. The bad news is that they will not allow a gas pipe under the patio slab unless it is done per code which would require a vented sleeve for the entire length. That was the rule for many years at the county but then it was changed to allow it under open patio covers. LNG is heavier than air so it's not possible to reach a fuel/air ratio that will ignite.

I once was called to a fire that involved a commercial tortilla kitchen in a back yard. The stove was run on propane and propane is also heavier than air. A 100 gallon tank leaked and the propane was trapped by a house, garage and fence. The explosion busted out the house windows, knocked the garage of the foundation, broke the fence and killed the cook.
 
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ICE said:
I spoke to the city building department. The bad news is that they will not allow a gas pipe under the patio slab unless it is done per code which would require a vented sleeve for the entire length.
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What CPC Chapter 12 reference did they provide?

Cheers, Wayne
 
I assume that the required vented sleeve will not be encased in the concrete footing, otherwise it won't be vented where it's encased.
 
I asked the question and he stated that the code will not allow a structure with a roof to be over a gas pipe. I read the section 1210.1.6. to him. His determination is that a patio cover is a building.

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As it turned out, he is associated with a third party agency. He asked me if I was interested in working.
 
ICE said:
His determination is that a patio cover is a building.
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The CPC definition (less exceptions that do not apply):

Building. A structure built, erected, and framed of component structural parts designed for the housing, shelter, enclosure, or support of persons, animals, or property of any kind.

I guess it's hard to argue with the idea that the patio cover is designed for the shelter of persons or property.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
The CPC definition (less exceptions that do not apply):

Building. A structure built, erected, and framed of component structural parts designed for the housing, shelter, enclosure, or support of persons, animals, or property of any kind.

I guess it's hard to argue with the idea that the patio cover is designed for the shelter of persons or property.

Cheers, Wayne
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I did not try to argue the point. He did suggest that I could ask the BO. I said that I had been an inspector and would not go over the inspector. That's when the conversation turned to an inquiry about me working for his company.

I just spoke to the LA County Mechanical Section and the pipe would be allowed under the patio cover slab in the County jurisdiction.
 
wwhitney said:
The CPC definition (less exceptions that do not apply):

Building. A structure built, erected, and framed of component structural parts designed for the housing, shelter, enclosure, or support of persons, animals, or property of any kind.

I guess it's hard to argue with the idea that the patio cover is designed for the shelter of persons or property.

Cheers, Wayne
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An open patio cover does not fit well with the concept of "shelter", for other than sunlight. There's certainly no protection from wind, rain, dust and vermin. Then one must consider "or support" persons, animals, or property of any kind. A picnic table with or without people is being supported.

I'm starting to think that LA County has it all wrong.... but correct at the same time. For that reason, if an AHJ says no, there is no valid argument that says yes. But conversely, if an AHJ says it's ok... who am I to argue?
 
ICE said:
An open patio cover does not fit well with the concept of "shelter", for other than sunlight.
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I think it does. When I google 'shelter' the first definition I get is "a place giving temporary protection from bad weather or danger." If it's raining, I'd rather be under the patio cover than under no cover. I will be protected from most of the rain (the exception being if I'm near the edge of the cover and it's windy).

So I think LA County does have the wrong interpretation of 1210.1.6 for this situation. Also, these questions about "what if it gets enclosed in the future" make me wonder if the choice in 1210.1.6 to refer to "buildings" rather than "enclosed buildings" was in fact deliberate.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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