High-Rise Sliding Door...Egress?

[jar546]

What would you consider the sliding glass door that allows the occupants to go on to a balcony of a protected high-rise?
I can't see where it meets the definition of Exit, Exit Access Doorway or any Exit definition.

If you have to step over an 11" threshold to get outside, what other issues do you see with this?
The building was originally designed this way.

 

[steveray]

Depends on what you mean , but it is allowed to slide and be egress...

1010.1.2 Door swing. Egress doors shall be of the pivoted or side-hinged swinging type. Exceptions: 1. Private garages, office areas, factory and storage areas with an occupant load of 10 or less. 2. Group I-3 occupancies used as a place of detention. 3. Critical or intensive care patient rooms within suites of health care facilities. 4. Doors within or serving a single dwelling unit in Groups R-2 and R-3.

 

[mtlogcabin]

You need to go back to when it was originally built. The code could have been the SBCCI or the South Florida Building Code. Maybe prior to any accessibility requirements
1010.1.7 Thresholds.
Thresholds at doorways shall not exceed 3/4 inch (19.1 mm) in height above the finished floor or landing for sliding doors serving dwelling units or 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) above the finished floor or landing for other doors. Raised thresholds and floor level changes greater than 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) at doorways shall be beveled with a slope not greater than one unit vertical in two units horizontal (50-percent slope).

Exceptions:

1. In occupancy Group R-2 or R-3, threshold heights for sliding and side-hinged exterior doors shall be permitted to be up to 73/4 inches (197 mm) in height if all of the following apply:

1.1. The door is not part of the required means of egress.

1.2. The door is not part of an accessible route as required by Chapter 11.

1.3. The door is not part of an Accessible unit, Type A unit or Type B unit.

2. In Type B units, where Exception 5 to Section 1010.1.5 permits a 4-inch (102 mm) elevation change at the door, the threshold height on the exterior side of the door shall not exceed 43/4 inches (120 mm) in height above the exterior deck, patio or balcony for sliding doors or 41/2 inches (114 mm) above the exterior deck, patio or balcony for other doors.

 

[jar546]

You need to go back to when it was originally built. The code could have been the SBCCI or the South Florida Building Code. Maybe prior to any accessibility requirements
1010.1.7 Thresholds.
Thresholds at doorways shall not exceed 3/4 inch (19.1 mm) in height above the finished floor or landing for sliding doors serving dwelling units or 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) above the finished floor or landing for other doors. Raised thresholds and floor level changes greater than 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) at doorways shall be beveled with a slope not greater than one unit vertical in two units horizontal (50-percent slope).

Exceptions:

1. In occupancy Group R-2 or R-3, threshold heights for sliding and side-hinged exterior doors shall be permitted to be up to 73/4 inches (197 mm) in height if all of the following apply:

1.1. The door is not part of the required means of egress.

1.2. The door is not part of an accessible route as required by Chapter 11.

1.3. The door is not part of an Accessible unit, Type A unit or Type B unit.

2. In Type B units, where Exception 5 to Section 1010.1.5 permits a 4-inch (102 mm) elevation change at the door, the threshold height on the exterior side of the door shall not exceed 43/4 inches (120 mm) in height above the exterior deck, patio or balcony for sliding doors or 41/2 inches (114 mm) above the exterior deck, patio or balcony for other doors.

Bingo. We are holding this to the 7-3/4" height requirement. (MAYBE?)

 

[steveray]

If it is 11", it was clearly not designed as anything a human should traverse and therefore exempt....Sounds like a window more than a door....

 

[jar546]

If it is 11", it was clearly not designed as anything a human should traverse and therefore exempt....Sounds like a window more than a door....

agree (but wait....)

 

[jar546]

Bingo. We are holding this to the 7-3/4" height requirement.

You need to go back to when it was originally built. The code could have been the SBCCI or the South Florida Building Code. Maybe prior to any accessibility requirements
1010.1.7 Thresholds.
Thresholds at doorways shall not exceed 3/4 inch (19.1 mm) in height above the finished floor or landing for sliding doors serving dwelling units or 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) above the finished floor or landing for other doors. Raised thresholds and floor level changes greater than 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) at doorways shall be beveled with a slope not greater than one unit vertical in two units horizontal (50-percent slope).

Exceptions:

1. In occupancy Group R-2 or R-3, threshold heights for sliding and side-hinged exterior doors shall be permitted to be up to 73/4 inches (197 mm) in height if all of the following apply:

1.1. The door is not part of the required means of egress.

1.2. The door is not part of an accessible route as required by Chapter 11.

1.3. The door is not part of an Accessible unit, Type A unit or Type B unit.

2. In Type B units, where Exception 5 to Section 1010.1.5 permits a 4-inch (102 mm) elevation change at the door, the threshold height on the exterior side of the door shall not exceed 43/4 inches (120 mm) in height above the exterior deck, patio or balcony for sliding doors or 41/2 inches (114 mm) above the exterior deck, patio or balcony for other doors.

I am going to reply to this again due for the following reasons:
1) The sliding door in question is not part of egress and not even required. If you remove the balcony and make the door a window and it would still be compliant.
2) There is confusion because 1010.1.7 is specific to "Means of Egress", therefore, this section does not apply to this slider. However, the exception in 110.1.7 does apply as it states that the 7-3/4" maximum sill height is allowed if the door is not part of the required means of egress.

So what I am asking everyone is this. How can a section that does not even apply to a door, suddenly apply because the exception in that section does apply? This does not make since.

 

[bill1952]

Is this door only for going to and from balcony?

 

[classicT]

Here is a question that is only intending to play devils advocate...

If the balcony is attached to the building (i.e. not at grade), it has a measurable floor area. With that floor area, an occupant load can be assigned. With an occupant load, does it become occupiable space? If it is an occupiable space, does it therefore require a means of egress? If a means of egress is required, then does the OP's sliding door become a part of the MOE and exit access route? Meaning persons on the balcony will egress from the balcony through this door, into the dwelling unit, then along the MOE. Does that then nullify the above IBC Section 1010.1.7 Exception #1 due to Condition 1.1? In this example, persons on the balcony would use the sliding door during egress from the building.

Exceptions:

1. In occupancy Group R-2 or R-3, threshold heights for sliding and side-hinged exterior doors shall be permitted to be up to 73/4 inches (197 mm) in height if all of the following apply:

1.1. The door is not part of the required means of egress.

1.2. The door is not part of an accessible route as required by Chapter 11.

1.3. The door is not part of an Accessible unit, Type A unit or Type B unit.

[BE] MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.

[BG] OCCUPIABLE SPACE. A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged at labor, and which is equipped with means of egress and light and ventilation facilities meeting the requirements of this code.

 

[steveray]

I'm with CT it is a MOE door from the balcony to the unit...Unless it is a window.....Then it is a window that someone might climb out for EERO or maybe just hang out on the balcony....

 

[bill1952]

So label it roof or awning, call it a window, and all is good? The power of a label.

 

[jar546]

Is this door only for going to and from balcony?

Yes

 

[jar546]

Here is a question that is only intending to play devils advocate...

If the balcony is attached to the building (i.e. not at grade), it has a measurable floor area. With that floor area, an occupant load can be assigned. With an occupant load, does it become occupiable space? If it is an occupiable space, does it therefore require a means of egress? If a means of egress is required, then does the OP's sliding door become a part of the MOE and exit access route? Meaning persons on the balcony will egress from the balcony through this door, into the dwelling unit, then along the MOE. Does that then nullify the above IBC Section 1010.1.7 Exception #1 due to Condition 1.1? In this example, persons on the balcony would use the sliding door during egress from the building.



[BE] MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.

[BG] OCCUPIABLE SPACE. A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged at labor, and which is equipped with means of egress and light and ventilation facilities meeting the requirements of this code.

Ahhhh, now I see. Excellent point.

 

[e hilton]

I thought it was generally accepted “if it's provided, it must be compliant”. So if this is the only door to the balcony, how can the 11” step be compliant?

 

[jar546]

Man this site is valuable.

 

[jar546]

I thought it was generally accepted “if it's provided, it must be compliant”. So if this is the only door to the balcony, how can the 11” step be compliant?

It can't.

 

[jar546]

Here is a question that is only intending to play devils advocate...

If the balcony is attached to the building (i.e. not at grade), it has a measurable floor area. With that floor area, an occupant load can be assigned. With an occupant load, does it become occupiable space? If it is an occupiable space, does it therefore require a means of egress? If a means of egress is required, then does the OP's sliding door become a part of the MOE and exit access route? Meaning persons on the balcony will egress from the balcony through this door, into the dwelling unit, then along the MOE. Does that then nullify the above IBC Section 1010.1.7 Exception #1 due to Condition 1.1? In this example, persons on the balcony would use the sliding door during egress from the building.



[BE] MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.

[BG] OCCUPIABLE SPACE. A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged at labor, and which is equipped with means of egress and light and ventilation facilities meeting the requirements of this code.

Now I will play devil's advocate.
If that is the case, then what is the purpose of exception 1? How could any door other than a closet not be part of a means of egress? Maybe a sliding door to a closet or inhabitable room?

 

[classicT]

Now I will play devil's advocate.
If that is the case, then what is the purpose of exception 1? How could any door other than a closet not be part of a means of egress? Maybe a sliding door to a closet or uninhabitable room?

What if the balcony also has a set of stairs? Then the stairs could be the MOE. The slider is then only provided for a circulation pathway.

 

[classicT]

Now I will play devil's advocate.
If that is the case, then what is the purpose of exception 1? How could any door other than a closet not be part of a means of egress? Maybe a sliding door to a closet or inhabitable room?

Exceptions:

1. In occupancy Group R-2 or R-3, threshold heights for sliding and side-hinged exterior doors shall be permitted to be up to 73/4 inches (197 mm) in height if all of the following apply:

1.1. The door is not part of the required means of egress.

1.2. The door is not part of an accessible route as required by Chapter 11.

1.3. The door is not part of an Accessible unit, Type A unit or Type B unit.

My read would be that IBC Section 1010.1.7 Exception #1 allows for a sliding door that provides access to an exterior patio at grade level (no need to re-enter building typically, so no MOE) or allows for situations where the door is part of a circulation pathway only.

I previously dealt with an occupiable roof area where each tenant had their own fenced off area, but each fence had a gate which allowed for access to a common area that then had an exterior exit stairway. In this case, the doors providing access from the dwelling to the occupied roof area were only intended for circulation. Once on the roof, the planned MOE was to stay on the outside of the building and exit via an exterior exit stairway.

 

[Paul Sweet]

"What if the balcony also has a set of stairs? Then the stairs could be the MOE. The slider is then only provided for a circulation pathway."

Also playing devil's advocate (and recalling a recent thread on this topic):

All doors out of a bldg required to be code compliant exits?

So there is a minimum requirement for door count out of a space but say your building has 12 doors to the exterior (assume warehouse with several convenience doors) and only (2) are required by code for exiting. Do you find in some jurisdictions that you are required to make all of those doors...

www.thebuildingcodeforum.com

Don't all doors that could be used for egress have to meet code requirements for egress doors? You could go from the room to the balcony to the stairs.

 

[mtlogcabin]

in which individuals congregate for amusement

I worked on a lot of high rises in south Florida in the 70's and 80's and witnessed a lot of amusing things going on on the balconies of existing buildins.

 

[mtlogcabin]

The balcony is not an occupiable space by definition since it is not a room or enclosed space and therefore the door is not part of a MOE. Also the 7 3/4" threshold is limited where it can be located
[BG] OCCUPIABLE SPACE. A room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy

1.1. The door is not part of the required means of egress.

1.2. The door is not part of an accessible route as required by Chapter 11.

1.3. The door is not part of an Accessible unit, Type A unit or Type B unit.

The only required MOE exit is the front door in an R-2 and R-3 dwelling unit

 

[JPohling]

I may have missed where this was a residential building, but we have this issue come up from time to time on commercial properties. The sliding door could be not a part of the MOE if there was a swinging door being used for that function. The issue with the sliding door is one of occupant load. A maximum of 10 occupants can egress thru a slider. Often times the balcony is larger than that and the occupant load exceeds the sliding door capacity. Swing doors typically will swing out for weather proofing, so sometimes we have a occupant load issue with those as well for swinging in direction of egress. The threshold heights are critical in commercial accessibility and sliders often do not comply. Swing doors we can get to comply but weather resistance is challenging.

 

[bill1952]

Don't all doors that could be used for egress have to meet code requirements for egress doors? You could go from the room to the balcony to the stairs.

Not if it's not required nor intended for egress, per a recent discussion here.

Just lable it not occupiable, though a guard across opening might be required - depending which side of that debate you took.

Let's not forget accessibility.

Evermindful it was built like this for hurricanes, I'm sure, and the consequences of a hurricane and minimal threshold are much worse, IMHO.