Homeowner Fired Contractor..Homeowner Wants to Secure Permit Can They????

[Mule]

I haven't run across this specific situation before so I'm asking the guru's on here!

A pool contractor secures a permit, going through the inspection process the homeowner decides to fire the contractor. We are in the middle of the permit.

We performed the deck steel ground a couple of weeks ago. The pool contractor calls and requests that we do not perform any more inspections. We go by to check the status of the pool. Up and running, finished and being used.

We put a "Stop Work Order" on the pool until we determine what is going on. The homeowner comes in to secure a pool permit. I informed the homeowner that we have a pool permit issued to the pool contractor and until the pool contractor releases the permit we (the city) cannot issue another permit on the pool.

They have finished the electrical, set all of the equipment and occupied the pool without the benefit of a final inspection. It is my opinion that the original permit holder has to release the permit before we can issue a permit to finish the work.

What do you guys think?

This same homeowner has more or less said *^*^&(# you to the city. They constructed two six foot retaining walls without engineered plans and inspections when we told them that permits and inspections were required. The same homeowner had a fence contractor construct a fence around the pool without securing a permit.

Got a call yesterday PM, I was out of the office, the permit tech stated that he (the homeowner) could do anything he wanted to on his property that he wanted to and if we didn't issue the pool permit that we would be spending a lot of money in attorney fees.

I'm not worried about that...I'm wondering what you guys think about issuing another permit when an existing permit is still in affect.

 

[north star]

* * *

Mule,

IMO, the originally issued permit is still valid until such time that the permit holder

removes themselves from it. Any Cetificates of Completion for the project goes to

the permit holder ONLY! In our AHJ, a swimming pool is considered to be an

accessory structure ( see Section R110.1, Exception # 2 ).

The pool contractor obtained the valid permit. Everything o.k. so far ( R105.1 )

Pool contractor called for reinforcement inspection, ...everything still o.k. A

"p_ssing match" develops between pool contractor and homeowner. Everything

still o.k. [ as far as you're concerned ]. Pool now finished and being used!

Now, it's NOT o.k. anymore! ( see Section R109.3, R109.4, R1091.6 & R113.1 ).

Once the Stop Work Order has been issued, it must be resolved to the statutes

established by your AHJ. If the pool contractor calls for an inspection on the

work finished and you inspect it & approve it, now a Certificate of Completion

can be given to the pool contractor.

Are there any [ exisiting, adopted provisions ] in place to assess fees / penalties

on a violator of your adopted codes & ordinances ( see Section R113.4 )?

All that said Mule, if the homeowner has connections to the "powers-that-be",

then you probably ought to seek guidance from your AHJ legal counsel. My

guess is that the 'Mr. Sunshine homeowner ' ain't wanting to pay the pool

contractor, in which case , ...that is a civil matter between them and NOT your

AHJ. Try not to be dragged in to the middle of this *&%$@* match!

As far as a fence around the pool is concerned, no [ separate ] permit is

required ( see Section R105.2, Exception # 2 ), however, if the fencing

was part of the original permit Scope of Work, then inspections would be

required on it.

* * *

 

[mtlogcabin]

1. A written letter from the homeowner that he discharged the pool contractor with a specific date of discharge

2. A letter from the pool contractor stating the date he was discharged and a specific description of the work left to be completed.

3. Revoke (R 105.6) that permit with a note why and attache copies of the 2 letters

4. Issue another permit to the homeowner for the remaining work. Include a specific description based on what the pool contractor stated and the homeowner signing for the permit will be

acknowledging what he is responsible to finish.

5. Cite the fence contractor and charge him a double permit fee. He knew he needed a permit.

The work has been completed do not side with one party or the other stay as nuetral as possible. Your first priority is code compliance for the pool and related equipment.

The pool contractor does not have to "release" the permit you may suspend or revoke it and issue a new permit to a new responsible party

 

[north star]

* * *

BTW, that Certificate of Completion is evidence that the contractor did

what they were supposed to do, according to your AHJ laws, & adopted

codes, and the issed Stop Work Order is evidence that [ someone ] did

not do what they were supposed to.

Evidence, evidence, evidence... As always, make sure that you keep

exact & legible records, and back up copies, ...ya know, for that CYA

Factor!



* * *

 

[TimNY]

We issue permits to the owner, so when contractors are fired there is no permit problem. Owner must furnish new contractors name, license and certificate of workers' compensation.

I think one of the larger issues is who the contractor that finished the project was, and did he have workers' compensation. I have never issued a pool permit with the homeowner as the contractor (permit holder, yes-- contractor, no).

I would have no problem revoking an permit and issuing a new one, provided the documentation is submitted.

 

[Mule]

Thanks for the responses.

north star...we've amended our code to require permits on fences over 30" tall.

The reason I stated that the original pool contractor needs to release the permit is because work was performed without his knowledge. Don’t the pool contractor and the electrician of record have responsibilities of the work performed and who knows what was performed or hidden after the pool contractor left?

Someone performed work on someone else’s permit.

Wouldn't the original pool contractor and electrical contractor have a liability on the work they performed even if the homeowner states he will be responsible?

If something went wrong, who would be responsible? Worst case scenario say if something goes wrong with the electrical, electrocutes a person. The electrician states my work was inspected and all was correct. Homeowner has gone in there and "changed" something to make it unsafe.

I know it's a debate in court but that is why I think the original pool contractor and electrician should "release" their permit with the homeowner acknowledging that they will not hold the pool contractor and electrical contractor responsible and the homeowner accepts all responsibility of the work performed prior to him, the homeowner taking over.

Someone finished the work......electrical and pool equipment. Do you think another electrician would want to be responsible for work that he did not perform?

I may be thinking too deep on this......

 

[mark handler]

1. A written letter from the homeowner that he discharged the pool contractor with a specific date of discharge2. A letter from the pool contractor stating the date he was discharged and a specific description of the work left to be completed.

3. Revoke (R 105.6) that permit with a note why and attache copies of the 2 letters

4. Issue another permit to the homeowner for the remaining work. Include a specific description based on what the pool contractor stated and the homeowner signing for the permit will be

acknowledging what he is responsible to finish.

5. Cite the fence contractor and charge him a double permit fee. He knew he needed a permit.

The work has been completed do not side with one party or the other stay as nuetral as possible. Your first priority is code compliance for the pool and related equipment.

The pool contractor does not have to "release" the permit you may suspend or revoke it and issue a new permit to a new responsible party

Good solution

 

[Mule]

And what if the contractor will not submit the letter?

Go ahead and issue the permit to the homeowner?

 

[mark handler]

Yes

Note it in the file.

Don't get in the middle of a lawsuit

If the owner can, by your state law, pull a permit, let them pull a new permit, with adequate plans and calculations

 

[FredK]

Too many issues:

Never had that happen on a pool.

As for letters either one is acceptable here. A contractor fired/quiting is nothing new as is the homeowner wanting to finish the work without the contractor. Here the owner is the owner of the permit no matter who picks up the permit.

Here the owner has some recourse with the State Builders Board and many take that option.

Once a letter is submitted we ask that the owner call for an inspection so we can verify at what stage they are in.

Fences: Any interior fence can be installed without a permit. A pool fence needs a final inspection. Retaining wall need engineering and inspections.

 

[cboboggs]

Here, the homeowner is the permit holder and we do not have contractor licensing so there would be no permit problem with the homeowner submitting a letter saying he dismissed the contractor. But that does not relieve the homeowner from having to be code compliant. But I like mtlogcabins solution better. I just can't do that here.

 

[Yankee]

When I have a contractor change for whatever reason (the contractor choice or the property owner's choice) I have the contractor itemize what he was responsible for and same with owner if possible and then mtlogcabin's plan sounds good

 

[MarkRandall]

I like the jurisdiction here that are stating the permit is issued to the owner. The dispute is none of the jurisdiction's business. A home owner shouldn't be be held hostage by the contractor who pulled the permit regardless of who's at fault in the dispute. If it's lack of payment or other issues, the contractor has rights to file liens against the property, but should have no right to prevent the owner from getting the project finished.

 

[Mule]

Sometimes I think to deep into things. Sometimes that's good...sometimes that's bad!

Game plan here...mtlogcabin suggestion basically.

I don't believe the pool contractor will submit a letter of what work was performed. I found out the homeowner owes the contractor quite a bit of money.

Require the homeowner to submit a letter of when the contract was terminated and what he (the homeowner) is responsible for.

Revoke the original pool and electrical permit.

Require a new pool permit with specifics on what is required to finish the pool.

Require a new electrical permit.

Perform all inspections required to finalize the pool.

 

[mark handler]

Mule

Who owns the plans?

 

[pyrguy]

1. A written letter from the homeowner that he discharged the pool contractor with a specific date of discharge2. A letter from the pool contractor stating the date he was discharged and a specific description of the work left to be completed.

3. Revoke (R 105.6) that permit with a note why and attache copies of the 2 letters

4. Issue another permit to the homeowner for the remaining work. Include a specific description based on what the pool contractor stated and the homeowner signing for the permit will be

acknowledging what he is responsible to finish.

5. Cite the fence contractor and charge him a double permit fee. He knew he needed a permit.

The work has been completed do not side with one party or the other stay as nuetral as possible. Your first priority is code compliance for the pool and related equipment.

The pool contractor does not have to "release" the permit you may suspend or revoke it and issue a new permit to a new responsible party

almost what we did in a former AHJ.

We added a letter from the new contractors accepting responsibility for ALL work for that trade. In other words the electrician (or other contractor) took on all responsibility for the completed pool including the work done by the previous contractor, homeowner, or guy down the street. He should be checking out the existing work anyway to assure he can fix any issues with the existing work.

 

[Mule]

Mark,

The staff and I were just talking about that. The pool company owns the plans. They drew up the plans, submitted all of the drawings, received the approval from the power company for the location.

The staff and I determined that the homeowner would be required to submit a site plan (that they drew up) and the approval from the power company on the location of the pool. We determined that this is all that is needed because the pool is already in the ground.

Thanks for all of the comments. It has helped me with my decision on what to do.

 

[Min&Max]

I would not revoke the original permit. It would appear that the majority of the work was completed under the original permit. I would note on the original that the contractor was terminated and include the date that you were informed of the change. It is to the original contractors benefit to give an accurate accounting of the work he performed in case there are problems in the future. Require the homeowner to be responsible for the work he completed. I would not issue additional permits. It serves no real purpose and collecting the additional fees are not worth the potential misery. Be happy with the paper work you have and move on.

 

[Mark K]

There are several issues here. First is that if work was not done per the permit and was not inspected then you deal with it as you would normally.

Second as said by others the permit is issued to the Owner. The Owner can fire the contractor when he wishes. The original contractor has no right to hold up future work. The building official has no right to require signoff by the original contractor.

There is no need for a new permit.

From the building department’s point of view the owner is responsible for compliance. The contractors responsibility is a civil matter between the contractor and the owner.

The pool companies ownership of the plans is a civil issue and does not impact the validity of the permit

If the jurisdiction requires evidence of workman compensation insurance by the contractor they can require this information be provided by any replacement contractors. If the homeowner hires some workmen directly he should also have to provide evidence of workman compensation insurance.

Whether the homeowner can act as his own contractor is defined by state contractor licensing laws. If we are talking about work on his own single family residence I believe that most states will allow the homeowner to act as his own contractor. He must still pass all inspections.

 

[peach]

In most cases where a homeowner wants to pull the permit, they need to display competence to do so.

I'd send them a notice of illegal use. Send it certified.. take it to court.

You don't need to get involved in who paid who.. and how much they paid.. they are using the pool illegally.

Let them say "screw you" to the municipality in front of a judge.

 

[Mark K]

Peach

What is the legal basis for refusing to issue a permit to a homeowner working on his own house unless he displays competence? If there is a legal basis what criteria would you use to evaluate whether he was competent?

The inspected work needs to be in compliance but that is after the permit has been issued. If you are ready to issue the permit you have already rendered an opinion that the design complies with the code.

 

[incognito]

Only push the issue if you know you will win. Just because you are in front of a judge doesn't mean he isn't sympathetic to the citizen. The last thing you want is to lose or even have the judge rule in your favor with a token fine. If you don't win decisively, you lose.

 

[Mule]

Well I spoke with the homeowner. I guess a few days to think about it changed his mind. He will bring in the necessary paper work and secure the proper permits.

I required;

A site plan showing the location of the pool and distances from all property lines and structures.

A release from the power company on the location of the pool.

A letter specifying the date he terminated his contract with the pool contractor and what was left to do on the pool so I will know what the homeowner will be responsible for.

A gas test on the line going to the spa performed by a master plumber.

On the reatining wall. Plans and specifications from an engineer and a letter from that engineer stating that the wall was constructed according to the plans.

The fence permit was secured a few days ago.

Everything is working out. IF the homeowner follows through with what he said.

 

[Yankee]

It may depend on your State's language. From my perspective here, the owner of the property is ultimatly resposable for meeting all codes, as the owner pays the contractor as an agent to preform the work. If there is a beef between them, it is a civil matter. I feel for those owners who don't stay on top of their contracted help but at least I try and let them know that in the end, it is their baby.