How "Strict" Is Your Health Department?

[arwat23]

Just trying to get a feel on if our local health department is just really "strict" or if this is the norm.

I'm working on a few food establishment projects. Everything need to go through the local health department. They have their unique requirements, etc., etc. What I'm curious about, and what's making these projects rough, is how they act when you make changes in the field.

A few of the projects have had field changes to due a number of reasons. Different existing conditions than what was expected, some product being discontinued... usual stuff. In my experience, building departments hardly care about these sorts of changes like that unless it affects structural or life-safety or accessibility. Health department? No, they want revision after revision after revision. Doesn't help that they take a month to review the plans and they need to approve every finish used in food handling areas and restrooms, and any changes to those finishes require a full resubmittal.... I'm ranting.

Anyways, is this normal? Do you have to submit revisions anytime any change, no matter how small, is made? I get needing to make sure everything complies with the local retail food code, and I get why changing the finishes would trigger the need to review the finishes, but requiring a full revision because I deleted a pony wall that hardly served any purpose to begin with seems a bit excessive to me. Building isn't asking for any revisions, just the health department.

Maybe it's because I've never had to submit much to a health department before? Maybe I'm just ignorant?

 

[steveray]

Sounds like health is too tough and building is too easy....

 

[Joe.B]

I'd say this is normal for CA, from what I've gathered. Around my parts they're about that strict, but they don't know what they're doing, and they're calling me trying to get me to enforce their codes. I stay in my lane.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Sounds like health is too tough and building is too easy....

Sounds to me like Health is doing its job and Building is too easy.

Under the ICC IBC (and under the IBC as adopted in my state), changes require submission of amended construction documents, which must be reviewed and approved before the changes can be constructed. IMHO, too many contractors (who should and generally do know better) and too many owners (who may or may not know better) regard a building permit as a license to construct whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want.

We almost never see an amended construction document -- until we fail an inspection because of an undocumented change. And then we're portrayed as the meanies because we interfere with completing the project on schedule.

Never forget: This is what caused the Station Club fire that killed 100 people and injured 230 people. The owners made a substitution in the sound control "eggcrate" foam.

 

[steveray]

Sounds to me like Health is doing its job and Building is too easy.

but requiring a full revision because I deleted a pony wall that hardly served any purpose to begin with seems a bit excessive to me.

I am not going to jack up a project and start "re-review" because they eliminated a half wall.....I am not saying to not get corrected documents. I am just saying there are ways to keep things moving when it is a minimal change....

 

[jar546]

I am just saying there are ways to keep things moving when it is a minimal change....

And that is what we SHOULD be doing. Finding ways to keep projects moving forward.

"Don't let government get in the way of governance."

 

[arwat23]

I am not going to jack up a project and start "re-review" because they eliminated a half wall.....I am not saying to not get corrected documents. I am just saying there are ways to keep things moving when it is a minimal change....

Usually, most jurisitication we work in (except a few who are far to lenient) are okay with as-built plans at the end of the project before the final inspection. As long as nothing "major" changes (door locations, accessibility, wall construction, structural items, etc.), that's usually how things are handled. Most of what I work on are TI's or small residential remodels, very rarely new construction, so that may have something to do with it (?).

 

[arwat23]

Under the ICC IBC (and under the IBC as adopted in my state), changes require submission of amended construction documents, which must be reviewed and approved before the changes can be constructed. IMHO, too many contractors (who should and generally do know better) and too many owners (who may or may not know better) regard a building permit as a license to construct whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want.

We almost never see an amended construction document -- until we fail an inspection because of an undocumented change. And then we're portrayed as the meanies because we interfere with completing the project on schedule.

Most of my clients are like that - they make changes without telling me or the AHJ, then panic when the project gets delayed because an inspection failed. Most of the time, I'm only made aware of a change long after the fact.

I recently had a ADU project where the owner basically cut me out of the picture after the permit was issued. Trying to save money... Contractor convinced the owner to do an entirely new layout, swore it wouldn't be an issue. Smaller window, no makeup air, different heat source. Contractor was shocked the city failed the inspection and blamed the city. I told the owner the contractor should have known better. That's a all to common issue for the firm I work for and the client we have...

 

[Yikes]

In my experience, if the building department is local/municipal but the health department (or fire department or sanitation department or utility, etc.) is regional, the regional approval agency is almost always more strict than than the building department. LA County Fire and LA County Health are contracted out to many local cities, and both are known for not being flexible.
I'm not talking about violating code. I'm talking about things like requiring the NSF certification of the sheet metal fabricator/installer at time of initial plan check (rather than just requiring certificates during construction).

I suspect the inflexibility is for several reasons:

• The regional agency does not have the city manager or city councilperson as their direct boss, which insulates them from some of the more political and economic impacts of their action / inaction
• They need a strict system to simplify the expectations of multiple municipalities. "First come, first serve".
• If they are petty with the little things, they'll put the fear of god into everyone and nobody will mess around with them. Similar to how elevator installers operate.

There are of course great people in very department. I've met wonderful, dedicated, responsive staff at the examples I just gave. But they seemed to be bucking the institutional culture; they stood out all the more brightly as the exception that proved the rule.