I think I've snapped - fire stops

[Aro]

My own operating premise, as to the purpose of the Code, is centered around it's two fundamental - and historical - objectives:

1. If a fire breaks out: Keep it from spreading from building to building to building and burning down an entire neighborhood or City - as used to happen back in the day.
2. If a fire breaks out: Allow the Occupants enough time to exit the building safely.

The purpose of the Code is not to construct buildings in such a way as to prevent fire damage to the building once a fire breaks out. It's to insure the two points above.

Now that fire sprinklering is rule, and not the exception, the role that fire stop penetrations play in the Code has not caught up. 100 to 150 years ago, tens of millions of Americans used to live in Cities with fire departments that were far less effective than they are today. And most buildings weren't sprinklered. It was pretty much taken as a given, back in the day, that once a fire broke out, the building was pretty much going to burn down. But as long as it met the two stated objectives above, the Code was seen as success.

 

[Aro]

…and smoke control, which kills way more people than fire, and any so called gooping will work to control smoke from spreading.

 

[ICE]

I have never seen or heard from others that fire spread through a gooped up opening

Score one for the inspectors.

 

[ICE]

The purpose of the Code is not to construct buildings in such a way as to prevent fire damage to the building once a fire breaks out. It's to insure the two points above

There is a third objective behind what inspectors do…. protecting firefighters.

 

[Aro]

Score one for the inspecto

There is a third objective behind what inspectors do…. protecting firefighters.

There is a third objective behind what inspectors do…. protecting firefighters.

I will give inspectors credit for all the points, wins and losses, not just wins, success has a thousand fathers.
So much gets done in the name of saving people, politicians are very busy saving children and inspectors are busy saving firefighters, I can agree if they would do more important stuff like smoke control, seismic, accessibility ….but reality is we farm out hardest and most crucial stuff to private contractors. I understand the reasons. We all should do our best by keeping common sense and not go crazy over one aspect is all I am saying. We can build the safest buildings if cost is not an issue but who can afford these? it all comes at a cost, thousands of people are living in the homeless encampments while we are making the safest buildings, fire extinguisher/ fire stop etc. industry keeps putting more of their wishes in code and all of us are watching this wreck helplessly, inspectors, consumers, contractors. Everyone!

 

[Mark K]

Yep....1705.1.1...I don't enjoy playing the "because I said so" card.....but I do when deemed necessary....

3. Materials and systems required to be installed in accordance with additional manufacturer’s instructions that prescribe requirements not contained in this code or in standards referenced by this code.

If you can show me what you are asking for is in the code we can have a rational discussion. But if you just say "because I say so" I consider it a form of extortion.

 

[tmurray]

You are so powerful, but remember knowledge makes you humble.

Is being humble the objective?

 

[TheCommish]

There is a 3 million square foot five story warehouse being built in my community with lots of slab edge to wall shafts with penetrations and rooms with penetrations I visit the site weekly and as the exterior wall edge and partition wall to exterior wall we're starting to be detailed I had concerns. Because this is a high rise in Massachusetts by definition, over 70 feet, section 1705.17 requires special inspections.

We made the project team aware that a third party inspector would have to do all the inspections required and being a good team they were well aware that they would have to provide the spec sheets for the products used for all the different penetrations. I would point out that my observations or advisory and that they needed to provide the specification sheets and prepare for the third party inspections. At a team meeting two months ago, we had the introduction of the third party inspector who performed some visual observations compared to the manufacturers specifications and offered work needed to come into compliance.

A formal inspection was done by the third party on the initial installs, and it didn't go well, specific comments were made referring to the specification sheets and given back to the build team. The installing contractor and build team contacted the manufacturer who happily sent out a representative who looked at the work, in some cases and unfortunately much of the already installed work had to be removed, and redone in compliance with the manufacturer specifications. The manufacture representative provided training for the installers guidance on more appropriate products that made the installers job easier.

We are now on track to have the thousands of penetrations and miles of exterior wall floor and petition intersections done correctly, the reports I received from the third party indicate a very high level of compliance and first inspection passing of the installed products.

One thing I have learned both as a contractor and an inspector product manufacturers are willing to help you use their product correctly my thought is it helps keep them out of trouble because they will be named in the suit when things go wrong so my advice often is call 1- 800 help me, and speak to the technical reps to see if the product is being used correctly or in one case there was a known defect in a skylight that the factory Rep knew all about and came out and took care of the product for me.

 

[Beniah Naylor]

It is not that difficult to find a listed assembly. To say that it is unreasonable to ask for one on inspection is the same as saying the average contractor and architect are too stupid and inept to find one and use it. While there are certainly examples of both, that's not the problem. There's a whole lot of "it's hard and I don't wanna" going on. Like many other violations, the application of diligent enforcement would make compliance expected, unremarkable, and commonplace.

 

[steveray]

There is a 3 million square foot five story warehouse being built in my community with lots of slab edge to wall shafts with penetrations and rooms with penetrations I visit the site weekly and as the exterior wall edge and partition wall to exterior wall we're starting to be detailed I had concerns. Because this is a high rise in Massachusetts by definition, over 70 feet, section 1705.17 requires special inspections.

We made the project team aware that a third party inspector would have to do all the inspections required and being a good team they were well aware that they would have to provide the spec sheets for the products used for all the different penetrations. I would point out that my observations or advisory and that they needed to provide the specification sheets and prepare for the third party inspections. At a team meeting two months ago, we had the introduction of the third party inspector who performed some visual observations compared to the manufacturers specifications and offered work needed to come into compliance.

A formal inspection was done by the third party on the initial installs, and it didn't go well, specific comments were made referring to the specification sheets and given back to the build team. The installing contractor and build team contacted the manufacturer who happily sent out a representative who looked at the work, in some cases and unfortunately much of the already installed work had to be removed, and redone in compliance with the manufacturer specifications. The manufacture representative provided training for the installers guidance on more appropriate products that made the installers job easier.

We are now on track to have the thousands of penetrations and miles of exterior wall floor and petition intersections done correctly, the reports I received from the third party indicate a very high level of compliance and first inspection passing of the installed products.

One thing I have learned both as a contractor and an inspector product manufacturers are willing to help you use their product correctly my thought is it helps keep them out of trouble because they will be named in the suit when things go wrong so my advice often is call 1- 800 help me, and speak to the technical reps to see if the product is being used correctly or in one case there was a known defect in a skylight that the factory Rep knew all about and came out and took care of the product for me.

Would you/ could you name the SI?

 

[TheCommish]

SI as in special inspector? = Jensen Hughes

 

[Aro]

I will give inspectors credit for all the points, wins and losses, not just wins, success has thousand fathers.
So much gets done in the name of saving people, politicians are very busy saving children and inspectors are busy saving firefighters, I can agree if they would do more important stuff like smoke control, seismic, accessibility ….but reality is we farm out hardest and most crucial stuff to private contractors. I understand the reasons. We all should do our best by keeping common sense and not go crazy over one aspect is all I am saying. We can build the safest buildings if cost is not an issue but who can afford these? it all comes at a cost, thousands of people are living in the homeless encampments while we are making the safest buildings, fire extinguisher/ fire stop etc etc industry keeps putting more of their wishes in code and all of us are watching this wreck helplessly, inspectors, consumers, contractors. Everyon!

Is being humble the objective?

Knowledge makes you humble, its inevitable, it’s of course not everyones objective. This is why teenagers always know it all

 

[Aro]

There is a 3 million square foot five story warehouse being built in my community with lots of slab edge to wall shafts with penetrations and rooms with penetrations I visit the site weekly and as the exterior wall edge and partition wall to exterior wall we're starting to be detailed I had concerns. Because this is a high rise in Massachusetts by definition, over 70 feet, section 1705.17 requires special inspections.

We made the project team aware that a third party inspector would have to do all the inspections required and being a good team they were well aware that they would have to provide the spec sheets for the products used for all the different penetrations. I would point out that my observations or advisory and that they needed to provide the specification sheets and prepare for the third party inspections. At a team meeting two months ago, we had the introduction of the third party inspector who performed some visual observations compared to the manufacturers specifications and offered work needed to come into compliance.

A formal inspection was done by the third party on the initial installs, and it didn't go well, specific comments were made referring to the specification sheets and given back to the build team. The installing contractor and build team contacted the manufacturer who happily sent out a representative who looked at the work, in some cases and unfortunately much of the already installed work had to be removed, and redone in compliance with the manufacturer specifications. The manufacture representative provided training for the installers guidance on more appropriate products that made the installers job easier.

We are now on track to have the thousands of penetrations and miles of exterior wall floor and petition intersections done correctly, the reports I received from the third party indicate a very high level of compliance and first inspection passing of the installed products.

One thing I have learned both as a contractor and an inspector product manufacturers are willing to help you use their product correctly my thought is it helps keep them out of trouble because they will be named in the suit when things go wrong so my advice often is call 1- 800 help me, and speak to the technical reps to see if the product is being used correctly or in one case there was a known defect in a skylight that the factory Rep knew all about and came out and took care of the product for me.

There is a 3 million square foot five story warehouse being built in my community with lots of slab edge to wall shafts with penetrations and rooms with penetrations I visit the site weekly and as the exterior wall edge and partition wall to exterior wall we're starting to be detailed I had concerns. Because this is a high rise in Massachusetts by definition, over 70 feet, section 1705.17 requires special inspections.

We made the project team aware that a third party inspector would have to do all the inspections required and being a good team they were well aware that they would have to provide the spec sheets for the products used for all the different penetrations. I would point out that my observations or advisory and that they needed to provide the specification sheets and prepare for the third party inspections. At a team meeting two months ago, we had the introduction of the third party inspector who performed some visual observations compared to the manufacturers specifications and offered work needed to come into compliance.

A formal inspection was done by the third party on the initial installs, and it didn't go well, specific comments were made referring to the specification sheets and given back to the build team. The installing contractor and build team contacted the manufacturer who happily sent out a representative who looked at the work, in some cases and unfortunately much of the already installed work had to be removed, and redone in compliance with the manufacturer specifications. The manufacture representative provided training for the installers guidance on more appropriate products that made the installers job easier.

We are now on track to have the thousands of penetrations and miles of exterior wall floor and petition intersections done correctly, the reports I received from the third party indicate a very high level of compliance and first inspection passing of the installed products.

One thing I have learned both as a contractor and an inspector product manufacturers are willing to help you use their product correctly my thought is it helps keep them out of trouble because they will be named in the suit when things go wrong so my advice often is call 1- 800 help me, and speak to the technical reps to see if the product is being used correctly or in one case there was a known defect in a skylight that the factory Rep knew all about and came out and took care of the product for me.

….we still have zero data to decide on which way is safer, go basic or involve JH and third party. A manufacturer will decide on what product a hapless contractor should get, conflict of interest much. How easy is it to remove the new fire stop, the cavity socks?
Think this way- Our safety depends more on cars than warehouses, I am just grateful a government inspector does not get together with a car manufacturer to decide what car and what safety features my family should get. Which way a third party or manufacturer will go here?
Why you think the Fire separation between SFH garage and living area has been removed? It’s because of sprinklers. It’s not as important as it used to be.

 

[Aro]

Is being humble the objective?

No, but it’s inevitable. Death is also not objective of anyone but it will happen. Are you saying an inspector can never get the job done if he is humble?

 

[ICE]

Are you saying an inspector can never get the job done if he is humble?

The opposite of humble is arrogant. A successful inspector will have a measure of each. The key is knowing which trait fits a given situation..