Include Restrooms In Occupancy Calcs

[Phil B]

I've seen varying thoughts on whether or not the toilet room areas in an assembly occupancy are to be included in the calculation of total occupancy. Since the toilet rooms are not part of the Net area, I say NO. If it's a Business occupancy, and part of the Gross, I've reluctantly agree with YES. Thoughts?

 

[steveray]

Gross yes, net no....

 

[RLGA]

I've seen varying thoughts on whether or not the toilet room areas in an assembly occupancy are to be included in the calculation of total occupancy. Since the toilet rooms are not part of the Net area, I say NO. If it's a Business occupancy, and part of the Gross, I've reluctantly agree with YES. Thoughts?

Don't be reluctant, it's a definitive yes.

 

[Phil B]

Don't be reluctant, it's a definitive yes.

How about an Exterior Waiting area in assembly occupancy? Should that be included in the calculation of required toilet fixtures? I say Yes, but would like hear a justification for a NO.

 

[RLGA]

How about an Exterior Waiting area in assembly occupancy? Should that be included in the calculation of required toilet fixtures? I say Yes, but would like hear a justification for a NO.

It depends on the intended operation of the waiting area:

1. Is the waiting area occupied by attendees waiting on the next event while the assembly space is being used by other attendees? Or,
2. Is the waiting area limited to those who have a seat for the event inside the assembly space?

A movie theater complex where people are in the waiting area by the doors for the next showing waiting for the people in the theaters to exit when that show is over is an example of #1.

A concert hall restricts access to the lobby area to those who hold tickets for the upcoming show--people are either in the concert hall itself or in the lobby. This is an example of #2.

If the situation is like #1, then I would say that both the assembly spaces and the waiting areas must be considered in the occupant load calculation and should be used to determine plumbing fixture counts.

If the situation is like #2, then only the occupant load of the assembly space needs to be used in determining plumbing fixture counts.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

look up the definitions for FLOOR AREA GROSS and FLOOR AREA NET in chapter 2........it clears things up nicely.

 

[Phil B]

It depends on the intended operation of the waiting area:

1. Is the waiting area occupied by attendees waiting on the next event while the assembly space is being used by other attendees? Or,
2. Is the waiting area limited to those who have a seat for the event inside the assembly space?

A movie theater complex where people are in the waiting area by the doors for the next showing waiting for the people in the theaters to exit when that show is over is an example of #1.

A concert hall restricts access to the lobby area to those who hold tickets for the upcoming show--people are either in the concert hall itself or in the lobby. This is an example of #2.

If the situation is like #1, then I would say that both the assembly spaces and the waiting areas must be considered in the occupant load calculation and should be used to determine plumbing fixture counts.

If the situation is like #2, then only the occupant load of the assembly space needs to be used in determining plumbing fixture counts.

Thank you. The condition is a combination of your #1 and #2: it's an exterior waiting area for seats in a restaurant. On one hand, those waiting will occupy a seat in the Assembly area, thus a case can be made for not counting the waiting area. On the other hand, if you look at it strictly, people waiting may need to use the toilets during the same time seated guests need to use the toilets, thus making a case for the exterior area needing to be counted.
Thank you again for your input!

 

[steveray]

We typically ask the designer to give a reasonable number of waiting people at restaurants....You could twist this a bit (if the wait was always short), but not sure I would be supportive:

[P] 2902.3 Employee and public toilet facilities. Customers,
patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities
in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization.
The number of plumbing fixtures located within the
required toilet facilities shall be provided in accordance with
Section 2902.1 for all users. Employees shall be provided
with toilet facilities in all occupancies. Employee toilet facilities
shall be either separate or combined employee and public
toilet facilities.
Exception: Public toilet facilities shall not be required in:
1. Open or enclosed parking garages where there are
no parking attendants.
2. Structures and tenant spaces intended for quick
transactions, including takeout, pickup and drop-off,
having a public access area less than or equal to 300
square feet (28 m2).

 

[mark handler]

Gross yes, net no....

I agree
FLOOR AREA, NET. The actual occupied area not including unoccupied accessory areas such as corridors, stairways, toilet rooms, mechanical rooms and closets.
FLOOR AREA, GROSS. The floor area within the inside perimeter of the exterior walls of the building under consideration, exclusive of vent shafts and courts, without deduction for corridors, stairways, closets, the thickness of interior walls, columns or other features. The floor area of a building, or portion thereof, not provided with surrounding exterior walls shall be the usable area under the horizontal projection of the roof or floor above. The gross floor area shall not include shafts with no openings or interior courts.

 

[khsmith55]

Just finished a small Performing Arts Center (15,000 sf+), included lobby area (OLF 7), restrooms (OLF 15) and Stage (OLF 15). Even with this conservative approach I had more than enough exits and plumbing fixtures based on the building program and function. Just my thoughts.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Toilet room OL would not be calculated in the net area of the assembly space however they should be include in the gross calculation for the office/kitchen or other use space within the building

 

[steveray]

They always miss that on mixed use...

 

[Phil B]

Toilet room OL would not be calculated in the net area of the assembly space however they should be include in the gross calculation for the office/kitchen or other use space within the building

(4 years later I still struggle with this one). Referring to the diagram below (not a real plan), wouldn;t the total occupancy and toilet fixture counts be based on the occupancies of the individual colored areas and not include the square footage of the Circulation and Toilet rooms? If you add occupancy load for Toilets and Circulation, aren't in effect doing double duty since guests are either walking to the toilets or in their seats, or working in the kitchen?

 

[arwat23]

(4 years later I still struggle with this one). Referring to the diagram below (not a real plan), wouldn;t the total occupancy and toilet fixture counts be based on the occupancies of the individual colored areas and not include the square footage of the Circulation and Toilet rooms? If you add occupancy load for Toilets and Circulation, aren't in effect doing double duty since guests are either walking to the toilets or in their seats, or working in the kitchen?

In this example, since the restrooms and circulation space primarily serve a "net" load factor function, then you are correct. The OL and Plumbing Fixture Count should not include the circulation space or toilet rooms.

If this was instead an office building (with a "gross" load factor), you would include circulation and restrooms when determining the OL and fixture count.

 

[Phil B]

In this example, since the restrooms and circulation space primarily serve a "net" load factor function, then you are correct. The OL and Plumbing Fixture Count should not include the circulation space or toilet rooms.

If this was instead an office building (with a "gross" load factor), you would include circulation and restrooms when determining the OL and fixture count.

Thank you!!

 

[steveray]

(4 years later I still struggle with this one). Referring to the diagram below (not a real plan), wouldn;t the total occupancy and toilet fixture counts be based on the occupancies of the individual colored areas and not include the square footage of the Circulation and Toilet rooms? If you add occupancy load for Toilets and Circulation, aren't in effect doing double duty since guests are either walking to the toilets or in their seats, or working in the kitchen?
View attachment 13425

The circulation space gets arguable...Once you omit the walking space behind the bar seats, why not the walking area between the tables and chairs? How about the room at the door swing?.... .But I am reasonable...

 

[Phil B]

The circulation space gets arguable...Once you omit the walking space behind the bar seats, why not the walking area between the tables and chairs? How about the room at the door swing?.... .But I am reasonable...

I get your point. In this case though, I have plenty of exit width in this case but am concerned about toilet fixtures. I don't think I should have to include the main circulation hallway area for determining toilet fixture quantities..

 

[steveray]

I get your point. In this case though, I have plenty of exit width in this case but am concerned about toilet fixtures. I don't think I should have to include the main circulation hallway area for determining toilet fixture quantities..

I'm reeeeaaaallly reasonable on toilet fixtures....Unfortunately the IBC isn't...but I think that change is being worked on...

 

[fungineer]

Speaking of toilet fixtures, if you have corridors which are shared, but included within gross occupancy (for example a multi-level building of R-2 or B) would you need to provide toilet fixtures (1 level above or below) to serve the occupant load of the circulation (and other common spaces) alone, seperate from the tenant spaces? As tenants may be vacant and/or locked, I wouldn't expect you could guarantee those would be open.

Needing to be 1 floor above or below makes it more tricky.

 

[fungineer]

Speaking of toilet fixtures, if you have corridors which are shared, but included within gross occupancy (for example a multi-level building of R-2 or B) would you need to provide toilet fixtures (1 level above or below) to serve the occupant load of the circulation (and other common spaces) alone, seperate from the tenant spaces? As tenants may be vacant and/or locked, I wouldn't expect you could guarantee those would be open.

Needing to be 1 floor above or below makes it more tricky.

More specifically, for the R-2 case, assume the corridors also shared common/building mechanical/storage rooms on each floor.

 

[SCBO1]

I would think you would calculate an assembly waiting area for the (A-Group) inside or outside for you total, however the mechanical room, storage room or bathrooms would not be part of the calcs unless there's a lounge area in the bathroom IMO.

With that said, a group of people standing outside a bar, IMO would not be party of the required OL count.

 

[steveray]

As both B and R are gross calculations...You count everything....Almost....

[BE]FLOOR AREA, GROSS. The floor area within the inside perimeter of the exterior walls of the building under consideration, exclusive of vent shafts and courts, without deduction for corridors, stairways, ramps, closets, the thickness of interior walls, columns or other features. The floor area of a building, or portion thereof, not provided with surrounding exterior walls shall be the usable area under the horizontal projection of the roof or floor above. The gross floor area shall not include shafts with no openings or interior courts.