Interpretation of except as provided in Sentences (4) and / or (5)

[sunyaer]

This is from Ontario Building Code Division B part 9:
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9.10.9.14. Separation of Residential Suites
........
(3) Except as provided in Sentences (4) and (5), dwelling units that contain 2 or more storeys including basements shall
be separated from the remainder of the building by a fire separation having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 1 h.
(4) Except as provided in Sentence (5), dwelling units in a house shall be separated from each other and common areas
by a fire separation having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 45 min.
(5) The fire-resistance rating of the fire separation required in Sentence (4) is permitted to be waived where the house
is sprinklered.
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Question:

What does"except as provided in Sentences (4) and (5)" mean? If "except as provided in Sentences (4) and (5)" is revised to "except as provided in Sentences (4) or (5)", how would sentence (3) be interpreted?

 

[tmurray]

My feeling is that the words "and" and "or" could be used interchangeably in this context, but I'm sure there is someone with a masters degree in English who could tell me how wrong I am.

Sentence 3 is a broad application of requirements, unless the more precise situation is met in sentences 4 or 5 are met which allow a lesser standard to be met (it could also require a more restrictive requirement as well if the condition warrants it).

 

[Plumb-bob]

What situation are you trying to relate this code article to?

 

[sunyaer]

My feeling is that the words "and" and "or" could be used interchangeably in this context,...

Sentence 3 is a broad application of requirements, unless the more precise situation is met in sentences 4 or 5 are met which allow a lesser standard to be met (it could also require a more restrictive requirement as well if the condition warrants it).

Would sentence 4 be seen as a broad application of requirements? (Assume only houses containing dwelling units in part 9, while sentence 3 specifically addresses houses with dwelling units that contain 2 or more storeys including basements)

 

[tmurray]

Would sentence 4 be seen as a broad application of requirements? (Assume only houses containing dwelling units in part 9, while sentence 3 specifically addresses houses with dwelling units that contain 2 or more storeys including basements)

It might be easier to look at them backwards. If sentence 5 doesn't apply, then you look at sentence 4. If sentence 4 doesn't apply, then sentence 3 does.

I would say sentence 4 is not as broad as 3 given the use of the defined term "house" in sentence 4 (this term is not used in the national code).

 

[sunyaer]

It might be easier to look at them backwards. If sentence 5 doesn't apply, then you look at sentence 4. If sentence 4 doesn't apply, then sentence 3 does.

I would say sentence 4 is not as broad as 3 given the use of the defined term "house" in sentence 4 (this term is not used in the national code).

I see there is some overlapping there between sentence 3 and 4: sentence 3 addresses all buildings that have dwelling units that contain 2 or more storeys including basements, while sentence 4 are about houses where dwelling units only contains one storey.

So strictly speaking, the wording of "except as provided in Sentences (4)" in sentence 3 is badly written, does it sound like "provided" should be "allowed"?So, sentence 3 would be like " except as allowed in Sentences (4), or provided in sentence 5". (Note: the requirement of fire-resistance rating in sentence 3 is not less than 1 hour, while sentence 3 is only 45 minutes)

 

[tmurray]

I see there is some overlapping there between sentence 3 and 4: sentence 3 addresses all buildings that have dwelling units that contain 2 or more storeys including basements, while sentence 4 are about houses where dwelling units only contains one storey.

So strictly speaking, the wording of "except as provided in Sentences (4)" in sentence 3 is badly written, does it sound like "provided" should be "allowed"?So, sentence 3 would be like " except as allowed in Sentences (4), or provided in sentence 5". (Note: the requirement of fire-resistance rating in sentence 3 is not less than 1 hour, while sentence 3 is only 45 minutes)

I'm not sure I can agree it is poorly worded. The use of the term "except as provided" is used dozens of times throughout the code and just one of the little nuances you get used of as you continue to use it on a regular basis.

We run into the same issue with new code users and the difference between "and" and "or". As an instructor, it is shocking to see how much trouble people have with such a simple concept. However, I likely struggled with it as much as anyone as a new code user.

Learning the language used by the code definitely takes time to get familiar with.

 

[sunyaer]

I'm not sure I can agree it is poorly worded. The use of the term "except as provided" is used dozens of times throughout the code and just one of the little nuances you get used of as you continue to use it on a regular basis.

We run into the same issue with new code users and the difference between "and" and "or". As an instructor, it is shocking to see how much trouble people have with such a simple concept. However, I likely struggled with it as much as anyone as a new code user.

...

Just came up with a better idea: "except as allowed in Sentence 4, or provided in sentence 5" probably would be "except as permitted in Sentence 4, or provided in sentence 5". The reason being is that sentence 4 is less restrictive (45 minutes) than sentence 3 (1 hour).

Comments?

Note:
there was a typo in the previous reply:
(Note: the requirement of fire-resistance rating in sentence 3 is not less than 1 hour, while sentence 3 is only 45 minutes)

 

[Inspector Gadget]

Look at it this way; this is what in logic (egad, that Philosophy course of eons ago actually did something) of the statement "Except as provided in (4) and (5)" actually means from a logic point of view.
Sentence 1 applies "except" for cases in sentences 4 and 5.
Normally, "and" in English (and Code) means that both clauses have to be true in order for the clause to be true.
However, this statement is not an actual logic-code application. It's a contextual application.
What you're looking for from a completely logic-accurate point of view is what in logic is a "NOR" operative, that is

"Sentence 1 applies if neither (4) nor (5) apply"

 

[Inspector Gadget]

Dang, hit enter, can't delete.
The problem here is that sentence (4) also allows for a conditional exception in sentence (5).
What would have been better is if (4) was written, "unless the suites are sprinklered, dwelling units in a house shall be separated from each other and common areas by a fire separation having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 45 min."
Then sentence (1) would read, "except as provided in sentence (4) ...." which would reduce the logic to a simple "or" comparative, that is, either sentence (1) OR sentence (4) must be true (ie: complied with.)