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is a means of egress door through a fire wall a horizontal exit?

C

ccollings

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Cleveland
I apologize for the number of posts. I've had a lot come up on this code review that i haven't dealt with before.

for a large school project, based on allowable areas, we have an auditorium that is separated from a cafeteria by a 2 hour fire wall. there are 2 means of egress doors from the auditorium into the cafeteria. (all per 706 & 716.5) The ahj is classifying these 2 doors as horizontal exits which require a standpipe on each side per 905.4. my interpretation is that these 2 doors are means of egress doors per 1006.3.1 and not a horizontal exit as defined by 1026..
 
ccollings said:
I apologize for the number of posts. I've had a lot come up on this code review that i haven't dealt with before.

for a large school project, based on allowable areas, we have an auditorium that is separated from a cafeteria by a 2 hour fire wall. there are 2 means of egress doors from the auditorium into the cafeteria. (all per 706 & 716.5) The ahj is classifying these 2 doors as horizontal exits which require a standpipe on each side per 905.4. my interpretation is that these 2 doors are means of egress doors per 1006.3.1 and not a horizontal exit as defined by 1026..
Click to expand...


The real question does it have to be?????

A two hour wall does not make an horizontal exit!!!!

So if exiting as it sets, meets all the requirements of the code,,,,,, You more than likely just have a two hour wall!!!!!!

Do not add to the headache.
 
cda said:
The real question does it have to be?????

A two hour wall does not make an horizontal exit!!!!

So if exiting as it sets, meets all the requirements of the code,,,,,, You more than likely just have a two hour wall!!!!!!

Do not add to the headache.
Click to expand...
based on the total building area, the school is divided up into 3 separate buildings, with 2 hour double fire walls separating the buildings. because of the occupancy number the auditorium requires 3 exits. we are providing 4, 2 of which connect to the cafeteria. the 2 doors into the cafeteria are through the fire wall so you are going from 1 building and 1 fire area into another building and another fire area. Does this make them horizontal exits per 1026.2? This doesn't seem to fit the definition as i understand it. table 716.5 has separate categories for openings in fire walls and horizontal exits in fire walls.
 
In my simple mind NO

Maybe this way,,,,

If you did not have to worry about over total area,,,

Would you put in a two hour wall???



A two hour wall does not make an horizontal exit!!!!
 
ccollings said:
based on the total building area, the school is divided up into 3 separate buildings, with 2 hour double fire walls separating the buildings. because of the occupancy number the auditorium requires 3 exits. we are providing 4, 2 of which connect to the cafeteria. the 2 doors into the cafeteria are through the fire wall so you are going from 1 building and 1 fire area into another building and another fire area. Does this make them horizontal exits per 1026.2? This doesn't seem to fit the definition as i understand it. table 716.5 has separate categories for openings in fire walls and horizontal exits in fire walls.
Click to expand...
What is your egress path? How do you get to the public way from the cafeteria or the auditorium if occupants must egress from either?

Are they exit access doors? Are you meeting travel distances? It's hard to tell without an egress code plan. What does your egress plan show?
 
ccollings said:
based on the total building area, the school is divided up into 3 separate buildings, with 2 hour double fire walls separating the buildings. because of the occupancy number the auditorium requires 3 exits. we are providing 4, 2 of which connect to the cafeteria. the 2 doors into the cafeteria are through the fire wall so you are going from 1 building and 1 fire area into another building and another fire area. Does this make them horizontal exits per 1026.2? This doesn't seem to fit the definition as i understand it. table 716.5 has separate categories for openings in fire walls and horizontal exits in fire walls.
Click to expand...
If you want them to be horizontal exits, then yes, they can be horizontal exits--you just have to make sure that the refuge areas on each side of the horizontal exit can handle the occupant loads from the adjoining side.
 
redeyedfly said:
What is your egress path? How do you get to the public way from the cafeteria or the auditorium if occupants must egress from either?

Are they exit access doors? Are you meeting travel distances? It's hard to tell without an egress code plan. What does your egress plan show?
Click to expand...
I would post a plan if i could figure out how.

the auditorium has 4 exits . 2 exit to the outside through the lobby. the other 2 doors exit, through the 2 hour fire wall, into the cafeteria. from the cafeteria you exit directly to the outside through the main entrance. there are also corridors off of the cafeteria which lead to other exits. hopefully that makes sense.
 
RLGA said:
If you want them to be horizontal exits, then yes, they can be horizontal exits--you just have to make sure that the refuge areas on each side of the horizontal exit can handle the occupant loads from the adjoining side.
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the AHJ feels that these doors are horizontal exits because you are exiting from 1 building into another. this requires standpipes on each side at each door per 905.4(2). it is my interpretation that these are not horizontal exit doors but i need a stronger defense than simply telling the ahj that it is not how i interpret the code. of course if i'm wrong, i'm wrong.
 
They are only horizontal exits if YOU want them to be horizontal exits. Just because they qualify to be horizontal exits they do not need to be if all other aspects for means of egress are addressed (e.g., egress width, travel distance, CPET). If you did not provide standpipes, then it is not a horizontal exit. Period.

Refer to Section 503.1, which states in part, "[f]or the purposes of determining area limitations, height limitations and type of construction, each portion of a building separated by one or more fire walls complying with Section 706 shall be considered to be a separate building."

Notice that the bold text does not mention means of egress. Fire walls are intended primarily for the regulation of height, area, and construction type--not means of egress. There is nothing in the IBC that says a fire wall must be a horizontal exit.
 
cda said:
The real question does it have to be?????

A two hour wall does not make an horizontal exit!!!!

So if exiting as it sets, meets all the requirements of the code,,,,,, You more than likely just have a two hour wall!!!!!!

Do not add to the headache.
Click to expand...
I think you mis-read. The OP is thinking the doors are MOE exits, the AHJ is calling them horizontal exits.
 
ccollings said:
the AHJ feels that these doors are horizontal exits because you are exiting from 1 building into another. this requires standpipes on each side at each door per 905.4(2). it is my interpretation that these are not horizontal exit doors but i need a stronger defense than simply telling the ahj that it is not how i interpret the code. of course if i'm wrong, i'm wrong.
Click to expand...


Have you done an exit analysis on paper?? Arrows, distances, etc???

That should show horizontal exit not needed


If you did not have to worry about over total area,,,

Would you put in a two hour wall???
 
ccollings said:
I would post a plan if i could figure out how.

the auditorium has 4 exits . 2 exit to the outside through the lobby. the other 2 doors exit, through the 2 hour fire wall, into the cafeteria. from the cafeteria you exit directly to the outside through the main entrance. there are also corridors off of the cafeteria which lead to other exits. hopefully that makes sense.
Click to expand...

Two ways

Become a Sawhorse and you can direct upload

Plus support this self supporting forum

Or create a link and post the link as in Flickr ,,, which I have no knowledge about
 
ccollings said:
the AHJ feels that these doors are horizontal exits because you are exiting from 1 building into another. this requires standpipes on each side at each door per 905.4(2). it is my interpretation that these are not horizontal exit doors but i need a stronger defense than simply telling the ahj that it is not how i interpret the code. of course if i'm wrong, i'm wrong.
Click to expand...
Typically doors through fire walls are used as horizontal exits. You're dividing the building by area so you often also don't make your travel distances without using a horizontal exit. That was my first reaction without more information. But I agree with RLGA, a door in a fire wall is not necessarily a horizontal exit.

I don't have much experience in E occupancies but a cafeteria and auditorium seem to be accessory to each other. You should be able to egress through them as part of your exit access.
 
ccollings said:
yes, that is my argument. the occupancy of the auditorium is 514 people which per 1006.3.1 requires 3 exits. travel distance is ok from the auditorium through the cafeteria to the exterior.
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There has to be other exits out of the auditorium????? Besides thru the two hour wall correct??


Just tell the ahj,

""" A two hour wall does not make an horizontal exit!!!! """""""""
 
I agree with Ron, there is nothing in the IBC that states a fire wall has to be considered a horizontal exit. That said, I have encountered AHJs who think that this is the case and just dig in their heels, demanding the standpipes. You may need to schedule a meeting with the plans reviewer or code official to understand their point of view. Citing IBC 503.1 may be helpful to your argument. Explain the fire walls are provided for allowable area purposes only. The doors in the fire wall just happen to be exit access doors in this case. Also, make sure you clearly show the 3 required means of egress from the auditorium space (which it sounds like either 1 or 2 of them is through the fire wall and to another exit on the other side).

Do you have a fire protection engineer or code consultant working with you on the project?
 
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