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Is it a "building", and or does it have a "fire area"

Try this one. An outdoor skating rink, 6000s.f. The rink is completely open on all 4 sides with a roof covering the entire thing. So A4, no sprinklers. Proposal is to convert it into a beer hall in the summer, with tables and benches, think German biergarten. It will include consumption of food as well. So now for part of the year it is an A2, >5,000s.f., requires sprinklers. Slam dunk right? But does it being open on all sides make any difference. This is an internal argument between people above my pay grade but it is interesting to consider. I am sure it will trickle down to me sooner or later so I'm glad I happened across this thread.
 
Sifu said:
Try this one. An outdoor skating rink, 6000s.f. The rink is completely open on all 4 sides with a roof covering the entire thing. So A4, no sprinklers. Proposal is to convert it into a beer hall in the summer, with tables and benches, think German biergarten. It will include consumption of food as well. So now for part of the year it is an A2, >5,000s.f., requires sprinklers. Slam dunk right? But does it being open on all sides make any difference. This is an internal argument between people above my pay grade but it is interesting to consider. I am sure it will trickle down to me sooner or later so I'm glad I happened across this thread.
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Yep have had same argument

After sore hands from getting slapped,

I will go it has a fire area,,,, so sprinklers
 
Without more information (all I have is what I posted) I am in agreement, as is the FD. But my CBO is not. There may be more to it, I'll wait and see.
 
The CBO will use the prescriptive compliance method of the IEBC and make a logical common sense decision based on the fact the structure is not enclosed. The fire chief also has the authority to make the same determination under the fire code. Now there will be other life safety issue to consider and address for the summer use such as table and chair placements and maintaining clear aisle width. Will there be cooking and if there is where, under the roof or outside of the structure.

SECTION 506
CHANGE OF OCCUPANCY

506.1 Compliance.
A change of occupancy shall not be made in any building unless that building is made to comply with the requirements of the International Building Code for the use or occupancy. Changes of occupancy in a building or portion thereof shall be such that the existing building is not less complying with the provisions of this code than the existing building or structure was prior to the change. Subject to the approval of the building official, changes of occupancy shall be permitted without complying with all of the requirements of this code for the new occupancy, provided that the new occupancy is less hazardous, based on life and fire risk, than the existing occupancy.

Exception: The building need not be made to comply with Chapter 16 of the International Building Code unless required by Section 506.4.

2018 IFC
[A] 102.3 Change of use or occupancy.
A change of occupancy shall not be made unless the use or occupancy is made to comply with the requirements of this code and the International Existing Building Code.

Exception: Where approved by the fire code official, a change of occupancy shall be permitted without complying with the requirements of this code and the International Existing Building Code, provided that the new or proposed use or occupancy is less hazardous, based on life and fire risk, than the existing use or occupancy.
 
The area under roof is considered a fire area as defined by the code. In the perfect world, you wouldn't have to worry about the fire sprinkler system, however, since we do not control the intended use or actual use of the structure, you kind of have to default to code requirements whether you agree or not. Case and point – Outdoor Bands? Cooking? How about when they add side tarps to three season the structure??? Add heaters to make it all season? Sorry IMHO, under roof, one fire area, A-3 / A-2 requires fire sprinklers.
 
Builder Bob said:
The area under roof is considered a fire area as defined by the code. In the perfect world, you wouldn't have to worry about the fire sprinkler system, however, since we do not control the intended use or actual use of the structure, you kind of have to default to code requirements whether you agree or not. Case and point – Outdoor Bands? Cooking? How about when they add side tarps to three season the structure??? Add heaters to make it all season? Sorry IMHO, under roof, one fire area, A-3 / A-2 requires fire sprinklers.
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Or if it is say 10000 sq ft and they want to store tires ten feet high???

More than likely high piled stock and sprinklers required.

Or other scenarios
 
Still no "official" info, but I am told by one of the potential users that the grand scheme is for several small eating/cooking/drinking establishments to feed this one "court". Not yet determined if each will have it's own commercial kitchen, or if it will be a shared kitchen area of some type. Any way you slice it this will be interesting. We may end up with a bunch of B occupancy small restaurants with no individual dining, and this detached structure used to house all of their eating and drinking customers. I like the concept (so far that is all it is) but not sure how it would fit in the codes. Stay tuned.
 
Sometime, checkout the Youtube Channel "broncos guru", where he has a weekly compilation he calls "bonehead boaters of the week". You'd be amazed at the number of fires that occur on docks and storage areas.
 
Got officially asked for my opinion. Proposal is a central hall (skating rink in winter, "banquet hall" in summer) surrounded by three separate bar/eating establishments, with what appears to be a single commercial kitchen (not sure if it will prepare and serve the entire area or only itself). Each separate A2 has it's own occupant load, and the banquet hall would serve all three for open seating for eating and drinking. There is also a stage for live entertainment and a games area. I was given a proposed conceptual plan, and I have lots of questions for the proposer but that is the overall idea. The three A2's appear to be existing, rehabbed change of occupancies, as is the rink to a banquet hall. Not sure if this is proposed as a single establishment with different areas, or as three or four separately operated establishments. Assumption is they are proposing all of these as one building (multiple buildings on the same lot) but I don't know enough about the construction, areas and protections to determine if that would work. They do not have enough separation distance for separate buildings as far as I can tell. Each area appears to have their own restrooms, with enough extras to handle to banquet hall but exact counts are not given.

This is essentially taking a 1/2 acre chunk of land, almost an entire downtown block from street to street. and turning it into an entertainment/eating/drinking complex. Disneyland for partiers. I like the concept, and I think it can work but gotta find out how to best apply the codes.

I know its vague, but that's what I have so far. Thoughts and comments will be appreciated, especially if anyone has dealt with anything like this before. I am sure there are similar places out there.
 
Sifu said:
Got officially asked for my opinion. Proposal is a central hall (skating rink in winter, "banquet hall" in summer) surrounded by three separate bar/eating establishments, with what appears to be a single commercial kitchen (not sure if it will prepare and serve the entire area or only itself). Each separate A2 has it's own occupant load, and the banquet hall would serve all three for open seating for eating and drinking. There is also a stage for live entertainment and a games area. I was given a proposed conceptual plan, and I have lots of questions for the proposer but that is the overall idea. The three A2's appear to be existing, rehabbed change of occupancies, as is the rink to a banquet hall. Not sure if this is proposed as a single establishment with different areas, or as three or four separately operated establishments. Assumption is they are proposing all of these as one building (multiple buildings on the same lot) but I don't know enough about the construction, areas and protections to determine if that would work. They do not have enough separation distance for separate buildings as far as I can tell. Each area appears to have their own restrooms, with enough extras to handle to banquet hall but exact counts are not given.

This is essentially taking a 1/2 acre chunk of land, almost an entire downtown block from street to street. and turning it into an entertainment/eating/drinking complex. Disneyland for partiers. I like the concept, and I think it can work but gotta find out how to best apply the codes.

I know its vague, but that's what I have so far. Thoughts and comments will be appreciated, especially if anyone has dealt with anything like this before. I am sure there are similar places out there.
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Sounds like the old/ new fad

Food Hall

Blog

Keep up with our newest Guides and News press releases about Legacy Hall.
www.legacyfoodhall.com www.legacyfoodhall.com


 
cda said:
Sounds like the old/ new fad

Food Hall

Blog

Keep up with our newest Guides and News press releases about Legacy Hall.
www.legacyfoodhall.com www.legacyfoodhall.com


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Similar, although the banquet hall has no walls at all, and the other establishments appear to be designed for fair weather dining and have plastic roll up walls. Not sure if the plan is to shutter them in winter or roll them down (hard to imagine this investment for a part-time operation). Wonder how the energy code would apply to a space without permanent walls that operates year round with heat in zone 5. The video shows an enclosed space like a food court under one roof. This proposal is 4 spaces, each under their own roof with daylight in between, though not much. I would upload a drawing but am hesitant to because it came to me as confidential. I have a call about this later today and I will see if an anonymous upload would violate any trust (that I haven't already violated!)
 
Sifu said:
Similar, although the banquet hall has no walls at all, and the other establishments appear to be designed for fair weather dining and have plastic roll up walls. Not sure if the plan is to shutter them in winter or roll them down (hard to imagine this investment for a part-time operation). Wonder how the energy code would apply to a space without permanent walls that operates year round with heat in zone 5. The video shows an enclosed space like a food court under one roof. This proposal is 4 spaces, each under their own roof with daylight in between, though not much. I would upload a drawing but am hesitant to because it came to me as confidential. I have a call about this later today and I will see if an anonymous upload would violate any trust (that I haven't already violated!)
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Got the concept,

yep agree would have to define temp use,
 
And more....
I confirmed the three existing buildings are VB. I see one over-riding decision point here. Permit as 4 separate structures with exterior rated walls since separation distances are not maintained, or as one single building, all suppressed since the area limitation for VB, NS would be exceeded. Even as separate buildings, the rink and one other A2 would require sprinklers anyway. Of course there are still a lot more questions but this appears to be the main concern.
 
cda said:
Got the concept,

yep agree would have to define temp use,
Click to expand...
Concept is similar food courts in enclosed shopping malls. One owner of leased spaces. Exiting, fire separation, parking and restrooms will be the issues of concern,
 
My vote is that it is not a building, it is a structure. It does have a fire area. The structure is use type U.
 
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