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Lighting tied into Bathroom GFCI outlet

N

NH09

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Sep 11, 2010
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153
Location
New Hampshire
I was inspecting a remodeled bathroom today and when I tested the GFCI outlet near the sink all of the lights went out (2 sconces and a ceiling light). I asked the electrician to separate out the lights and outlets, but he cited section 410.10 (D) of the 2008 NEC and said he was required to have GFCI protection for the lights because they are within 3feet of the edge of the tub. I interpret that section to mean the sconces need to be rated for a damp location and GFCI protection is required only if specified by the manufacturer. The surface mount ceiling light (also within the zone) would be exempt from any requirements. My concern is that if the GFCI trips at night anyone in the bathroom will be plunged into darkness - Any thoughts out there?
 
First off 410.10(D) does not require GFCI protection of lights near a sink.

Second, is this bathroom fed with a dedicated 20 amp branch circuit in accordance with 210.11©(3) Exception? If it is, then the lights in the bathroom can be on the same circuit with the required receptacle and can be on the load side of the GFCI.

Chris
 
We allow the same circuit but not down stream of the gfci. Also have enforced similar in unfinished basements where a home owner would be in the dark if the gfci tripped. I Couldn't find anywhere that the nec tells you to protect lighting circuits.
 
That's the problem, the NEC doesn't say you can't GFCI protect the lights, nor does it prohibit the lights from being on the line side of a GFCI. It appears that the setup he has would be allowed, but only because the NEC does not specifically address that situation. It just seems to me that having all the lights go out when a GFCI trips would be unsafe (at least after dark). But I enforce the code, not my opinions.
 
raider1 said:
First off 410.10(D) does not require GFCI protection of lights near a sink.Second, is this bathroom fed with a dedicated 20 amp branch circuit in accordance with 210.11©(3) Exception? If it is, then the lights in the bathroom can be on the same circuit with the required receptacle and can be on the load side of the GFCI.

Chris
Click to expand...
This is the best answer and I agree
 
Pappy Code dog said:
We allow the same circuit but not down stream of the gfci. Also have enforced similar in unfinished basements where a home owner would be in the dark if the gfci tripped. I Couldn't find anywhere that the nec tells you to protect lighting circuits.
Click to expand...
On what basis do you prohibit the lights from being installed on the load side of the GFCI?

Chris
 
"On what basis do you prohibit the lights from being installed on the load side of the GFCI?"

We do it by local adopted amendment, I don't really think it was needed, but electrical guys pushed it.
 
I think someone must have been left in the dark as a kid when a gfci tripped in the bathroom and wanted to change the code via local amendment to compensate for childhood trauma.:pitty
 
fatboy said:
"On what basis do you prohibit the lights from being installed on the load side of the GFCI?"We do it by local adopted amendment, I don't really think it was needed, but electrical guys pushed it.
Click to expand...
I think the question is not your procedure, but more of what is the justification?
 
Chris: No place does it say you can't protect the lights. If it is a 20 amp circuit then fine. I suppose a local ahj can adopt anything they want! Codes don't always make sense.
 
Follow me thru the following code sections:

1. 210.11©(3) - This sections calls for at least one 20A branch circuit to supply bathroom receptacle outlets and NO OTHER OUTLETS.

2. 210.11© Exception - This exception states where the 20A circuit supplies a single bathroom, other outlets in that same bathroom can be supplied IF you comply 210.23

3. 210.23(A) - This section states that 20A branch circuits are permitted to supply a combination of outlets such as lighting and receptacle outlets, EXCEPT...

4. 210.23(A) Exception - This exception states the 20A branch circuit to bathrooms as required in 210.11© may only supply receptacle outlets.

So here's the loop. Can the bathroom branch circuit also supply the lights and exhaust fan?

210.11©(3) says NO.

210.11© excecption says YES, but...

210.23(A) says YES.

210.23(A) exception says NO, see 210.11©

HA!
 
* * * *

Bryan listed 2 "no's" and 2 "yes's".



What's the correct answer ? :surr

* * * *
 
Bryan Holland said:
Follow me thru the following code sections:1. 210.11©(3) - This sections calls for at least one 20A branch circuit to supply bathroom receptacle outlets and NO OTHER OUTLETS.

2. 210.11© Exception - This exception states where the 20A circuit supplies a single bathroom, other outlets in that same bathroom can be supplied IF you comply 210.23

3. 210.23(A) - This section states that 20A branch circuits are permitted to supply a combination of outlets such as lighting and receptacle outlets, EXCEPT...

4. 210.23(A) Exception - This exception states the 20A branch circuit to bathrooms as required in 210.11© may only supply receptacle outlets.

So here's the loop. Can the bathroom branch circuit also supply the lights and exhaust fan?

210.11©(3) says NO.

210.11© excecption says YES, but...

210.23(A) says YES.

210.23(A) exception says NO, see 210.11©

HA!
Click to expand...
But, Bryan the Exception to 210.11©(3) does not send us to 210.23(A) it sends us to 210.23(A)(1) and (2).:devil

Chris
 
When I started as an inspector I would ask for, and get, a separate circuits for the receptacle and light in an attic with equipment. I didn't know any better. It was the way I was taught with the reason that if you are in the attic, you don't want to trip the light circuit with a power tool. No code for that or the sensible layout of a circuit with GFI's. Most competent electricians understand that about the code.
 
Agreed ICE, I spoke with the electrician about it and while we both agreed the NEC does not require the lighting and receptacles to be on a separate circuit he decided to separate them out anyways.
 
In Massachusetts, there is an amendment to 210.70. It adds a section 210.70(D) which reads: " (D) GFCI Protection of Lighting Outlets in All Occupancies. The operation of a single GFCI device shall not deenergize all lighting outlets in a given area. "

Most electricians in this area work in both states because of their size and license reciprocity. this may be where the confusion comes from.
 
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