• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Limited Combustibility of Bonded_Acoustic_Cotton

MrHaz

Member
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
7
Location
Overland Park, KS
Greetings future friends and colleagues!

I'm the FNG here at FSC, Inc. in Overland Park, KS. I have 3 1/2 years working as a Building Inspector (residential only) and have been part time here since Sept. 2012, and full time as of 2 Jan. 2013.

We are trying to avoid having to sprinkle the space above these ceilings I'm about to discuss.

We have a client that has called out a "2" bonded acoustic cotton" being used above a man-made, wood ceiling, and our local Plans Examiner says we have to sprinkle above and below this ceiling, even though it's all rated Class A.

K. Flammability:

1. ASTM E84, Class A. Flame Spread: 5.

2. Smoke Developed: 35.

I'm trying to find information on the bonded acoustic cotton in regards to the BtU's/CF. The 2" only comes in a 3#/CF density. If it's comprised of 3,500 BtU's or less, then it meets the limited combustibility requirements.\

In the meantime, if it's all Class A, how is it any different than thousands (conservatively) of lay-in ceilings used throughout the USA?

I thank each of you for your time and consideration in advance, and look forward to all those things I'll be learning as a result of being part of this forum!
 
Welcome, your not in Kansas anymore!!!

How much space is there above the actual ceiling? Between the ceiling and hard deck??

Sounds like they meet at least three reasons in nfpa 13 that do not require sprinklers
 
Oh, that changes the channel

Need to look at nfpa 13 for concealed space to see if they meet one of the about 13 reasons they do not need sprinklers

But with that large of void space unless it is completely filled with non combustible sounds like sprinklers are needed.

What is the void space and actual deck material?? All wood?
 
before the post police get you, there are some categories this could fit under, more then likely commercial fire.

but anyway, pick your non required area, but once again your void space is to big to use any of them, I am 99.1% sure::

8.15.1 Concealed Spaces.

8.15.1.1 Concealed Spaces Requiring Sprinkler Protection. Concealed spaces of exposed combustible construction shall be protected by sprinklers except in concealed spaces where sprinklers are not required to be installed by 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 and 8.15.6.

2013 NFPA 13

8.15.1.2* Concealed Spaces Not Requiring Sprinkler Protection.

8.15.1.2.1* Concealed spaces of noncombustible and limited-combustible construction with minimal combustible loading having no access shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.1.1 The space shall be considered a concealed space even with small openings such as those used as return air for a plenum.

8.15.1.2.2 Concealed spaces of noncombustible and limited-combustible construction with limited access and not permitting occupancy or storage of combustibles shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.2.1 The space shall be considered a concealed space even with small openings such as those used as return air for a plenum.

8.15.1.2.3 Concealed spaces formed by studs or joists with less than 6 in. (152 mm) between the inside or near edges of the studs or joists shall not require sprinkler protection. (See Figure 8.6.4.1.5.1.)

8.15.1.2.4 Concealed spaces formed by bar joists with less than 6 in. (152 mm) between the roof or floor deck and ceiling shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.5* Concealed spaces formed by ceilings attached directly to or within 6 in. (152 mm) of wood joist or similar solid member construction shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.6* Concealed spaces formed by ceilings attached to composite wood joist construction either directly or onto metal channels not exceeding 1 in. (25.4 mm) in depth, provided the joist channels are firestopped into volumes each not exceeding 160 ft3 (4.53 m3) using materials equivalent to the web construction and at least 3 1/2 in. (90 mm) of batt insulation is installed at the bottom of the joist channels when the ceiling is attached utilizing metal channels, shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.7 Concealed spaces filled with noncombustible insulation shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.7.1 A maximum 2 in. (50 mm) air gap at the top of the space shall be permitted.

8.15.1.2.8 Concealed spaces within wood joist construction and composite wood joist construction having noncombustible insulation filling the space from the ceiling up to the bottom edge of the joist of the roof or floor deck, provided that in composite wood joist construction the joist channels are firestopped into volumes each not exceeding 160 ft3 (4.53 m3) to the full depth of the joist with material equivalent to the web construction, shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.9 Concealed spaces over isolated small rooms not exceeding 55 ft2 (5.1 m2) in area shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.10 Concealed spaces where rigid materials are used and the exposed surfaces have a flame spread index of 25 or less, and the materials have been demonstrated not to propagate fire more than 10.5 ft (3.2 m) when tested in accordance with ASTM E 84, Standard Test Method of Surface Burning Characteristics of Building Materials, or ANSI/UL 723, Standard for Test for Surface Burning Characteristics of Building Materials, extended for an additional 20 minutes in the form in which they are installed, shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.11* Concealed spaces in which the exposed materials are constructed entirely of fire retardant–treated wood as defined by NFPA 703 shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.12 Noncombustible concealed spaces having exposed combustible insulation where the heat content of the facing and substrate of the insulation material does not exceed 1000 Btu/ft2 (11,356 kJ/m2) shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.13 Concealed spaces below insulation that is laid directly on top of or within wood joists or composite wood joists used as ceiling joists in an otherwise sprinklered concealed space, with the ceiling attached directly to the bottom of the joists, shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.14 Vertical pipe chases under 10 ft2 (0.93 m2), where provided in multifloor buildings where the chases are firestopped at each floor using materials equivalent to the floor construction, and where such pipe chases shall contain no sources of ignition, piping shall be water-filled or noncombustible and pipe penetrations at each floor shall be properly sealed and shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.15 Exterior columns under 10 ft2 (0.93 m2) in area, formed by studs or wood joist supporting exterior canopies that are fully protected with a sprinkler system, shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.16* Concealed spaces formed by noncombustible or limited-combustible ceilings suspended from the bottom of wood joists, composite wood joists, wood bar joists, or wood trusses that have insulation filling all of the gaps between the bottom of the trusses or joists, and where sprinklers are present in the space above the insulation within the trusses or joists, shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.16.1 The heat content of the facing, substrate, and support of the insulation material shall not exceed 1000 Btu/ft2 (11,356 kJ/m2).

8.15.1.2.17* Concealed spaces formed by noncombustible or limited-combustible ceilings suspended from the bottom of wood joists and composite wood joists with a maximum nominal chord width of 2 in. (50.8 mm), where joist spaces are full of noncombustible batt insulation with a maximum 2 in. (50.8 m) air space between the roof decking material and the top of the batt insulation shall not require sprinklers.

8.15.1.2.17.1 Facing that meets the requirements for noncombustible or limited-combustible material covering the surface of the bottom chord of each joist and secured in place per the manufacturer's recommendations shall not require sprinklers.

8.15.1.2.18 Soffits, Eaves, Overhangs, and Decorative Frame Elements.

8.15.1.2.18.1 Combustible soffits, eaves, overhangs, and decorative frame elements shall not exceed 4 ft 0 in. (1.2 m) in width.

8.15.1.2.18.2 Combustible soffits, eaves, overhangs, and decorative frame elements shall be draftstopped, with a material equivalent to that of the soffit, into volumes not exceeding 160 ft3 (4.5 m3).

8.15.1.2.18.3 Combustible soffits, eaves, overhangs, and decorative frame elements shall be separated from the interior of the building by walls or roofs of noncombustible or limited-combustible construction.

8.15.1.2.18.4 Combustible soffits, eaves, overhangs, and decorative frame elements shall have no openings or unprotected penetrations directly into the building.

8.15.1.3 Concealed Space Design Requirements. Sprinklers in concealed spaces having no access for storage or other use shall be installed in accordance with the requirements for light hazard occupancy.
 
The building is Type-I construction, so all above the ceiling assembly is steel or concrete.

The acoustic insulation called out has Flame Spread of 20 and Smoke Developed of 0. We just can't find that it's been tested per NFPA 259 to know the Potential Heat of Building Materials.

I don't understand the need to have NFPS 259 involved as it's only referenced in regards to Foam Plastic Insulation.

In the meantime, we've found an alternate product that's being well received by all of the design folks (so far) and we may simply swap one that's "approved" for one they think is not approved.

Thanks again, VERY much, for your assistance here. You ROCK!!!
 
"""being used above a man-made, wood ceiling,"""""

But you said that the ceiling material is wood??? with wood involved you create a combustible concealed space.

If the ceiling is wood how is it supported???
 
View attachment 700

As shown above, the wooden slats are hung in a grid system, typical of any lay-in ceiling. The concealed space is above the wood, however, the wood is not exposed to the concealed space, but rather the 2" acoustic liner. The roof deck is above (steel & concrete from Type-I).View attachment 700

/monthly_2013_05/3_Section_Detail.JPG.8030a71cbef6aac29970db131fc48516.JPG
 
Who manufactured the product in question? Can you contact them directly?

This may help if this is the manufacturer Acoustical Surfaces Inc. then I believe it is tested in accordance with NFPA 255
 
Top