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Means of Egress for Open Floor Layout

C

code-stressed

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
15
Location
LA
Hello everybody,Ive been trying to get a fire clearance as an RCFE - Residential Care for the Elderly- in California (5 non-ambulatories, 1 bedridden)that is under group R3.1.I have an open floor layout wherein upon entrance, living room goes straight to the kitchen/dining area. Please see attached.On the left of the living room is a bedroom. on the right is another bedroom.Behind the living room wall is the activity area separated by partition from the kitchen.On its right is another bedroom.Room assignments:Rm1 - 1 non-ambRm2 - 1 non-ambRm 3 - 2 non-ambsRm 4 - 1 bedridden, 1 non-amb

View attachment 2096

The inspector cites "425.8.3.2 Group R-3.1 occupancies housing non- ambulatory clients. In a Group R-3.1 occupancy, bedrooms used by nonambulatory clients shall have access to at least one of the required exits which shall conform to one of the following:1. Egress through a hallway or area into a bedroom in the immediate area which has an exit directly to the exterior and the corridor/hallway is constructed consistent with the dwelling unit interior walls. The hallway shall be separated from common areas by a solid wood door not less than 13/8 inch (35 mm) in thickness, maintained self-closing or shall be automatic closing by actuation of a smoke detector installed in accordance with Section 715.4.8.2. Egress through a hallway which has an exit directly to the exterior. The hallway shall be separated from the rest of the house by a wall constructed consistent with the dwelling unit interior walls and opening protected by a solid wood door not less than 13/8 inch (35 mm) in thickness, maintained self-closing or shall be automatic closing by actuation of a smoke detector installed in accordance with Section 715.4.8.3. Direct exit from the bedroom to the exterior shall be of a size as to permit the installation of a door not less than 3 feet (914 mm) in width and not less than 6 feet 8 inches (2032 mm) in height. When installed, doors shall be capable of opening at least 90 degrees and shall be so mounted that the clear width of the exit way is not less than 32 inches (813 mm).4. Egress through an adjoining bedroom which exits to the exterior."So he said exits #1 and #3 cannot be used by rooms 1, 2, and 3 because it is not separated from the kitchen and cites the code:"425.8.3.4 Intervening rooms. A means of exit shall not pass through more than one intervening room. A means of egress shall not pass through kitchens, storerooms, closets, garages or spaces used for similar purposes. Exception: Kitchens which do not form separate rooms by construction."Therefore, wants to close the opening from kitchen to activity area walled, install a self closing door on the living room, and never permit non-amb on rm1.Only staff can use it or an ambulatory client.The layout now becomes a maze and a pain to get through from bedrooms to dining/living room, especially with the self-closing door on the living room.View attachment 2097

Enter the Q&A part.1. What could be my other options?2. Does the "Exception: Kitchens which do not form separate rooms by construction." apply to this layout, and therefore allow exit#1 & exit #3 to be used as a means of egress for Bedrooms 1, 2& 3?3. Can I use previously approved RCFEs that were cleared for fire which has a similar open floor plan? (If there is a way to obtain that).4. Is the extent of the inspectors' entitlement to their own interpretation of the code limitless?Any input I can get is appreciated as Im lost with this.View attachment 2096

View attachment 2097

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/monthly_2014_08/572953f21aa34_33floorplan.jpg.6f5ba117002ba8352f89bbce34ac62b3.jpg
 
Is there a case opening by the bathroom??? That leads into the activity room and to an exterior door # 3???
 
don't meet the exception???

Exception: Kitchens that do not form separate rooms by construction.
 
thanks for the warm!

No sprinklers (yet?). inspector allows use of exit#1&3 with sprinklers installed.

"Only facilities >1 bedridden is required of sprinklers as per:

425.8.3.3 Group R-3.1 occupancies housing only one bedridden client. In Group R-3.1 occupancies housing a bedridden client and not provided with an approved automatic sprinkler system..."

Yes, there is a case opening, just like the one that leads to the living room.

Exception, which I interpret to be "means of egress CAN pass through kitchen (exit#3 -since activity rm is open to kitchen, and exit#1- living rm is open to kitchen) which do not form separate rooms by construction".
 
I would say walking through the activity room is not the same as walking through a kitchen, even if they are open to each other.

Sounds like you need to bump it one level

Have to read all of 425 but only says you cannot exit through a kitchen, does not say anything about requiring the kitchen to be separated from the rest of the house
 
He is basing the separated means of egress from the rest of the house, although I don't have a hallway, using

425.8.3.2

2. Egress through a hallway which has an exit directly to the exterior. The hallway shall be separated from the rest of the house by a wall constructed consistent with the dwelling unit interior walls and opening protected by a solid wood door not less than 13/8 inch (35 mm) in thickness, maintained self-closing or shall be automatic closing by actuation of a smoke detector installed in accordance with Section 715.4.8.

Which is what prompted the proposed wall in the activity room and door in the living room.



Inspector argues that the smoke in the assumed fire from the kitchen will easily overcome non-ambulatory clients coming from their bedrooms exiting to exit#1 through living room & exit #3 through activity room,

due to the absence of separation. Want every means of egress separated from the kitchen.

Pardon my redundancies. I want to make it clear from those reading this.

I hope im making sense. Cause insp is not.
 
He stresses further that, "(425.8.3.2) non-ambulatory clients shall have access to at least one of the required exits which shall conform to" 1 of the 4 mentioned.

1. Hallway (w/c I do not have due to open layout) separated from the rest of the house.

2. Hallway (again) separated from the rest of the house.

3. Direct exit from bedrm.

4. Through adjoining bedrm that has direct exit.
 
I hope im making sense. Cause insp is not.

You are he is not

There are some calif people on here that should be able to shed light on the sunshine state
 
Aren't each bedroom also provided with a window exit? Slab on grade or raised foundation?

You have hilighted what happens when "operators" attempt to alter a single family residence to this type or similar use.
 
Thanks cda! I thought Im starting to enter the "starting-to-lose-it-not-making-any-sense" phase.

ADAguy,

Thanks!

Yes, Bedrm 1. E5040, 2. E6040, 3.E6040.

Slab on grade.

I hope you have nothing on me who wishes to be one of those operators someday.

I don't have any problems on complying as long as it is the code and not some personal preferences.

BTW, Im not planning on getting beyond 6 well-taken care clients, if that means anything.
 
In CA this has become a cottage industry for some. They bought low during the recession and collect major monthly fees while benefiting from recovery appreciation. Basically they are creating apartments in SF neighborhoods.

Are you compliant with local zoning codes, a CUP may also be required.
 
They bought low during the recession and collect major monthly fees while benefiting from recovery appreciation.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good business plan

Basically they are creating apartments in SF neighborhoods.
Click to expand...
No they are providing a "family" living arrangement for unrelated individuals.

Started a long time ago when the definition of "family" was changed by the courts
 
Ah, I get where you're coming from. I heard some horror stories too.

Im all for some of the reforms that need to be addressed.

CUP is only required for >6. They recognize that some older folks want to stay on a "home setting" in a "residential" zone.

To others, it help their parents transition from home to "semi-institution".
 
ADAguy said:
Aren't each bedroom also provided with a window exit? Slab on grade or raised foundation?You have hilighted what happens when "operators" attempt to alter a single family residence to this type or similar use.
Click to expand...
They are required two door exits, windows do not count
 
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ca/st/b200v10/st_ca_st_b200v10_4_sec025.htm

SECTION 425 SPECIAL PROVISIONS FOR LICENSED 24-HOUR CARE FACILITIES IN A GROUP R-2.1, R-3.1, R-4 [sFM]

425.1 Scope. The provisions of this section shall apply to 24-hour care facilities in a Group R-2.1, R-3.1 or R-4 occupancy licensed by a governmental agency.

425.2 General. The provisions in this section shall apply in addition to general requirements in this code.

425.3.1 Group R-2.1, R-3.1 and R-4 shall be constructed in accordance with Table 503.

425.3.2 Limitations six or less clients. Group R-3.1 occupancies where nonambulatory clients are housed above the first story, having more than two stories in height or having more than 3,000 square feet (279 m2) of floor area above the first story shall not be of less than one-hour fire-resistance-rated construction throughout.

In Group R3.1 occupancies housing a bedridden client, the client sleeping room shall not be located above or below the first story.

Exception: Clients who become bedridden as a result of a temporary illness as defined in Health and Safety Code Sections 1566.45, 1568.0832 and 1569.72. A temporary illness is an illness, which persists for 14 days or less. A bedridden client may be retained in excess of the 14 days upon approval by the Department of Social Services and may continue to be housed on any story in a Group R-3.1 occupancy classified as a licensed residential facility.

Every licensee admitting or retaining a bedridden resident shall, within 48 hours of the resident’s admission or retention in the facility, notify the local fire authority with jurisdiction of the estimated length of time the resident will retain his or her bedridden status in the facility.

425.3.3 Limitations seven or more clients. Group R-4 occupancies where nonambulatory clients are housed above the first story and there is more than 3,000 square feet (279 m2) of floor area above the first story or housing more than 16 clients above the first story shall be constructed of not less than one-hour fire-resistance-rated construction throughout.

425.3.4 Nonambulatory elderly clients. Group R-4 occupancies housing nonambulatory elderly clients shall be of not less than one-hour fire-resistance-rated construction throughout.

425.4 Type of construction provisions.

425.4.1 Group R-2.1, occupancies are not permitted in nonfire-resistance-rated construction, see Health and Safety Code Section 13131.5.

425.5 Fire-resistance-rated construction provisions.

425.5.1 Smoke barriers required. Group R-2.1 and R-4 occupancies licensed as a Residential Care Facility (RCF) with individual floor areas over 6,000 square feet (557 m2) per floor, shall be provided with smoke barriers, constructed in accordance with Section 710.

Group R-2.1 occupancies housing bedridden clients shall be provided with smoke barriers constructed in accordance with Section 710 regardless of the number of clients.

When smoke barriers are required, the area within a smoke compartment shall not exceed 22,500 square feet (2090 m2) nor shall its travel distance exceed 200 feet (60 960 mm). Such smoke barriers shall divide the floor as equally as possible.

425.5.2 Smoke partitions. Group R-2.1 occupancies where smoke partitions are required, framing shall be covered with noncombustible materials having an approved thermal barrier with an index of not less than 15 in accordance with FM 4880, UL 1040, NFPA 286 or UL 1715.

425.5.3 Independent egress. At least two means of egress shall be provided from each smoke compartment created by smoke barriers. Means of egress may pass through adjacent compartments provided it does not return through the smoke compartment from which means of egress originated.

425.6 Interior finish provisions.

425.6.1 Interior wall and ceiling finish. Group R-3.1 occupancies housing a bedridden client shall comply with interior wall and ceiling finish requirements specified for Group I-2 occupancies in Table 803.9.

425.7 Fire protection system provisions.

425.7.1 Automatic sprinkler systems in Group R-2.1, R-3.1 and R-4 occupancies. An automatic sprinkler system shall be installed where required in Section 903.

425.7.2 Fire alarm systems in Group R-2.1 and R-4 occupancies. An approved fire alarm system shall be installed where required in Section 907.

425.7.3 Smoke alarms in Groups R-2.1, R-3.1 and R-4 occupancies. Smoke alarms shall be installed where required in Section 907.2.11.1.

425.7.4 Hearing impaired. See Section 907.5.2.3.

425.8 Means of egress provisions.

425.8.1 General. In addition to the general means of egress requirements of Chapter 10, this section shall apply to Group R-2.1, R-3.1 and R-4 occupancies.

425.8.2 Number of exits.

425.8.2.1 Group R-2.1, R-3.1 and R-4 occupancies shall have a minimum of two exits.

Exception: Ancillary use areas or occupancies shall have egress as required by Section 1021.

425.8.3 Egress arrangements.

425.8.3.1 Egress through adjoining dwelling units shall not be permitted.

425.8.3.2 Group R-3.1 occupancies housing non- ambulatory clients. In a Group R-3.1 occupancy, bedrooms used by nonambulatory clients shall have access to at least one of the required exits which shall conform to one of the following:

1. Egress through a hallway or area into a bedroom in the immediate area which has an exit directly to the exterior and the corridor/hallway is constructed consistent with the dwelling unit interior walls. The hallway shall be separated from common areas by a solid wood door not less than 13/8 inch (35 mm) in thickness, maintained self-closing or shall be automatic closing by actuation of a smoke detector installed in accordance with Section 715.4.8.

2. Egress through a hallway which has an exit directly to the exterior. The hallway shall be separated from the rest of the house by a wall constructed consistent with the dwelling unit interior walls and opening protected by a solid wood door not less than 13/8 inch (35 mm) in thickness, maintained self-closing or shall be automatic closing by actuation of a smoke detector installed in accordance with Section 715.4.8.

3. Direct exit from the bedroom to the exterior shall be of a size as to permit the installation of a door not less than 3 feet (914 mm) in width and not less than 6 feet 8 inches (2032 mm) in height. When installed, doors shall be capable of opening at least 90 degrees and shall be so mounted that the clear width of the exit way is not less than 32 inches (813 mm).

4. Egress through an adjoining bedroom which exits to the exterior.

"""""425.8.3.3 Group R-3.1 occupancies housing only one bedridden client. In Group R-3.1 occupancies housing a bedridden client and not provided with an approved automatic sprinkler system, all of the following shall apply:

1. In Group R-3.1 occupancies housing a bedridden client, a direct exit to the exterior of the residence shall be provided from the client sleeping room.

2. Doors to a bedridden client's sleeping room shall be of a self-closing, positive latching 1-3/8 inch solid wood door. Such doors shall be provided with a gasket so installed as to provide a seal where the door meets the jam on both sides and across the top. Doors shall be maintained self-closing or shall be automatic closing by actuation of a smoke alarm in accordance with Section 715.4.8.

3. Group R-3.1 occupancies housing a bedridden client, shall not have a night latch, dead bolt, security chain or any similar locking device installed on any interior door leading from a bedridden client's sleeping room to any interior area such as a corridor, hallway and or general use areas of the residence in accordance with Chapter 10.

4. The exterior exit door to a bedridden client's sleeping room shall be operable from both the interior and exterior of the residence.

5. Every required exit doorway from a bedridden client sleeping room shall be of a size as to permit the installation of a door not less than 3 feet (914 mm) in width and not less than 6 feet 8 inches (2032 mm) in height. When installed in exit doorways, exit doors shall be capable of opening at least 90 degrees and shall be so mounted that the clear width of the exit way is not less than 32 inches (813 mm).

Note: A sliding glass door can be used as an exterior exit doorway as long as it is operable from the inside and outside and the clear width of the exit way is not less than 32 inches (813 mm).

425.8.3.4 Intervening rooms. A means of exit shall not pass through more than one intervening room. A means of egress shall not pass through kitchens, storerooms, closets, garages or spaces used for similar purposes.

Exception: Kitchens which do not form separate rooms by construction.""""""""""""""

425.8.4 Corridors.

425.8.4.1 Unless specified by Section 425.8.4, corridors serving Group R-2.1 and Group R-4 occupancies shall comply with Section 1018.1.

425.8.4.2 The minimum clear width of a corridor shall be as follows:

1. Group R-2.1 occupancies shall have 60 inches (1524 mm) on floors housing nonambulatory clients and 44 inches (1118 mm) on floors housing only ambulatory clients.

2. Group R-4 occupancies shall have 44 inches (1118 mm) on floors housing clients.

Exceptions:

1. Corridors serving an occupant load of 10 or less shall not be less than 36 inches (914 mm) in width.

2. Corridors serving ambulatory persons only and having an occupant load of 49 or less shall not be less than 36 inches (914 mm) in width.

3. Group R-4 occupancies shall have 36 inches (914 mm) on floors housing clients.

425.8.5 Changes in level. In Group R-3.1 occupancies housing nonambulatory clients interior changes in level up to 0.25 inch (6 mm) may be vertical and without edge treatment.
 
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425.7 Fire protection system provisions.

425.7.1 Automatic sprinkler systems in Group R-2.1, R-3.1 and R-4 occupancies. An automatic sprinkler system shall be installed where required in Section 903.

903.2.8 Group R. An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area. [F]

Exceptions:

1. Existing Group R-3 occupancies converted to Group R-3.1 occupancies not housing bedridden clients, not housing nonambulatory clients above the first floor and not housing clients above the second floor.

2. Existing Group R-3 occupancies converted to Group R-3.1 occupancies housing only one bedridden client and complying with Section 425.8.3.3.

3. Pursuant to Health and Safety Code Section 13113 occupancies housing ambulatory children only, none of whom are mentally ill or mentally retarded, and the buildings or portions thereof in which such children are housed are not more than two stories in height, and buildings or portions thereof housing such children have an automatic fire alarm system activated by approved smoke detectors.

4. Pursuant to Health and Safety Code Section 13143.6 occupancies licensed for protective social care which house ambulatory clients only, none of whom is a child (under the age of 18 years), or who is elderly (65 years of age or over).

When not used in accordance with Section 504.2 or 506.3 an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.2 shall be allowed in Group R-2.1 occupancies.

An automatic sprinkler system designed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.3 shall not be utilized in Group R-2.1 or R-4 occupancies.
 
No sprinklers and all of this applies

"""""425.8.3.3 Group R-3.1 occupancies housing only one bedridden client. In Group R-3.1 occupancies housing a bedridden client and not provided with an approved automatic sprinkler system, all of the following shall apply:

1. In Group R-3.1 occupancies housing a bedridden client, a direct exit to the exterior of the residence shall be provided from the client sleeping room.

2. Doors to a bedridden client's sleeping room shall be of a self-closing, positive latching 1-3/8 inch solid wood door. Such doors shall be provided with a gasket so installed as to provide a seal where the door meets the jam on both sides and across the top. Doors shall be maintained self-closing or shall be automatic closing by actuation of a smoke alarm in accordance with Section 715.4.8.

3. Group R-3.1 occupancies housing a bedridden client, shall not have a night latch, dead bolt, security chain or any similar locking device installed on any interior door leading from a bedridden client's sleeping room to any interior area such as a corridor, hallway and or general use areas of the residence in accordance with Chapter 10.

4. The exterior exit door to a bedridden client's sleeping room shall be operable from both the interior and exterior of the residence.

5. Every required exit doorway from a bedridden client sleeping room shall be of a size as to permit the installation of a door not less than 3 feet (914 mm) in width and not less than 6 feet 8 inches (2032 mm) in height. When installed in exit doorways, exit doors shall be capable of opening at least 90 degrees and shall be so mounted that the clear width of the exit way is not less than 32 inches (813 mm).



Note: A sliding glass door can be used as an exterior exit doorway as long as it is operable from the inside and outside and the clear width of the exit way is not less than 32 inches (813 mm).

425.8.3.4 Intervening rooms. A means of exit shall not pass through more than one intervening room. A means of egress shall not pass through kitchens, storerooms, closets, garages or spaces used for similar purposes.

Exception: Kitchens which do not form separate rooms by construction.""""""""""""""

Sprinkle the residence and 425.8.3.3 is not applicable

 
Sprinkler Exception:

2. Existing Group R-3 occupancies converted to Group R-3.1 occupancies housing only one bedridden client and complying with Section 425.8.3.3.

I'll be having only one bedridden (due to care demands) and will be fully compliant to Section 425.8.3.3.

The big questions are:

1. Can I use exit #1 and #3 for the 5 non-ambulatory clients?

2. If not, and with the layout that I have, how can I comply with

425.8.3.2 Group R-3.1 occupancies housing non- ambulatory clients. In a Group R-3.1 occupancy, bedrooms used by nonambulatory clients shall have access to at least one of the required exits which shall conform to one of the following:

1. Egress through a hallway or area into a bedroom in the immediate area which has an exit directly to the exterior and the corridor/hallway is constructed consistent with the dwelling unit interior walls. The hallway shall be separated from common areas by a solid wood door not less than 13/8 inch (35 mm) in thickness, maintained self-closing or shall be automatic closing by actuation of a smoke detector installed in accordance with Section 715.4.8.

2. Egress through a hallway which has an exit directly to the exterior. The hallway shall be separated from the rest of the house by a wall constructed consistent with the dwelling unit interior walls and opening protected by a solid wood door not less than 13/8 inch (35 mm) in thickness, maintained self-closing or shall be automatic closing by actuation of a smoke detector installed in accordance with Section 715.4.8.

3. Direct exit from the bedroom to the exterior shall be of a size as to permit the installation of a door not less than 3 feet (914 mm) in width and not less than 6 feet 8 inches (2032 mm) in height. When installed, doors shall be capable of opening at least 90 degrees and shall be so mounted that the clear width of the exit way is not less than 32 inches (813 mm).

4. Egress through an adjoining bedroom which exits to the exterior.

?

Is option "3. Direct exit from bedroom" my only choice?

Ive been losing sleep for more than a month now thinking about this until I finally have some conversations going from you guys.
 
"Sprinkle the residence and 425.8.3.3 is not applicable"

I don't have a problem with 425.8.3.3, all 5 requirements are met.

The issue is the exit route for the other 5 clients (non-ambulatory but NOT bedridden).
 
sounds like you are back to talking to the plan reviewer and maybe have his boss set in on the meeting to figure out why you do not meet code???

I do not understand the exception???

425.8.3.4 Intervening rooms. A means of exit shall not pass through more than one intervening room. A means of egress shall not pass through kitchens, storerooms, closets, garages or spaces used for similar purposes.

Exception: Kitchens which do not form separate rooms by construction.""""""""""""""

I guess the california people are on vaction, hopefully someon will see this and respond
 
I don't have a problem with 425.8.3.3, all 5 requirements are met.
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If you are going to have one bedridden resident then you have not met all 5 requirements to avoid sprinklers

If you do not have a bedridden resident then 425.8.3.3 is not applicable
 
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