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Mezzanine MOE....again

Sifu

Sifu

SAWHORSE
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
2,839
New one for me. Proposal is for a mezzanine, used for storage in a new B building (local government owned). They propose a rolling stair for access, like what you would see at a box store. Hard for me to see how this is permitted, even if the rolling stair met all applicable provisions (which I have never seen). Any experience out there with this? This is a storage mezzanine by design and function, not an equipment platform.
 

505.2.2Means of egress.​

The means of egress for mezzanines shall comply with the applicable provisions of Chapter 10.

1011.16 Ladders.
Permanent ladders shall not serve as a part of the means of egress from occupied spaces within a building. Permanent ladders shall be constructed in accordance with Section 306.5 of the International Mechanical Code. Permanent ladders shall be permitted to provide access to the following areas:

1. Spaces frequented only by personnel for maintenance, repair or monitoring of equipment.

2. Nonoccupiable spaces accessed only by catwalks, crawl spaces, freight elevators or very narrow passageways.

3. Raised areas used primarily for purposes of security, life safety or fire safety including, but not limited to, observation galleries, prison guard towers, fire towers or lifeguard stands.

4. Elevated levels in Group U not open to the general public.

5. Nonoccupied roofs that are not required to have stairway access in accordance with Section 1011.12.1.

6. Where permitted to access equipment and appliances in accordance with Section 306.5 of the International Mechanical Code.
 
Not a permanent ladder. This is a stair...on wheels. I have never seen one that would comply with 1011 but I suppose it is possible. I am relying on 505.2.2 when it says that the MOE must comply with ch. 10, and since there is nothing in ch. 10 about a moveable stair, 505.2.2 would not be met. However, I try to keep my mind open to the concept that the code does not prohibit something just because it is not mentioned. In this case, I think the mandate is to use one of the methods from ch. 10, so I don't think that concept applies here, but thought I would ask anyway.
 
Personally I would prefer to use a ships ladder over an alternating tread device any day.


1011.14.2 Treads of alternating tread devices.
Alternating tread devices shall have a minimum tread depth of 5 inches (127 mm), a minimum projected tread depth of 81/2 inches (216 mm), a minimum tread width of 7 inches (178 mm) and a maximum riser height of 91/2 inches (241 mm). The tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the foremost projections of adjacent treads. The riser height shall be measured vertically between the leading edges of adjacent treads. The riser height and tread depth provided shall result in an angle of ascent from the horizontal of between 50 and 70 degrees (0.87 and 1.22 rad). The initial tread of the device shall begin at the same elevation as the platform, landing or floor surface.

Exception: Alternating tread devices used as an element of a means of egress in buildings from a mezzanine area not more than 250 square feet (23 m2) in area that serves not more than five occupants shall have a minimum tread depth of 3 inches (76 mm) with a minimum projected tread depth of 101/2 inches (267 mm). The rise to the next alternating tread surface shall not exceed 8 inches (203 mm).

1011.15 Ships ladders.
Ships ladders are permitted to be used in Group I-3 as a component of a means of egress to and from control rooms or elevated facility observation stations not more than 250 square feet (23 m2) with not more than three occupants and for access to unoccupied roofs. The minimum clear width at and below the handrails shall be 20 inches (508 mm).
 
mtlogcabin said:
Personally I would prefer to use a ships ladder over an alternating tread device any day.


1011.14.2 Treads of alternating tread devices.
Alternating tread devices shall have a minimum tread depth of 5 inches (127 mm), a minimum projected tread depth of 81/2 inches (216 mm), a minimum tread width of 7 inches (178 mm) and a maximum riser height of 91/2 inches (241 mm). The tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the foremost projections of adjacent treads. The riser height shall be measured vertically between the leading edges of adjacent treads. The riser height and tread depth provided shall result in an angle of ascent from the horizontal of between 50 and 70 degrees (0.87 and 1.22 rad). The initial tread of the device shall begin at the same elevation as the platform, landing or floor surface.

Exception: Alternating tread devices used as an element of a means of egress in buildings from a mezzanine area not more than 250 square feet (23 m2) in area that serves not more than five occupants shall have a minimum tread depth of 3 inches (76 mm) with a minimum projected tread depth of 101/2 inches (267 mm). The rise to the next alternating tread surface shall not exceed 8 inches (203 mm).

1011.15 Ships ladders.
Ships ladders are permitted to be used in Group I-3 as a component of a means of egress to and from control rooms or elevated facility observation stations not more than 250 square feet (23 m2) with not more than three occupants and for access to unoccupied roofs. The minimum clear width at and below the handrails shall be 20 inches (508 mm).
Click to expand...
I have gotten State modification here for ships ladders as I agree...
 
Sifu said:
New one for me. Proposal is for a mezzanine, used for storage in a new B building (local government owned). They propose a rolling stair for access, like what you would see at a box store. Hard for me to see how this is permitted, even if the rolling stair met all applicable provisions (which I have never seen). Any experience out there with this? This is a storage mezzanine by design and function, not an equipment platform.
Click to expand...
How big is it? If it's a shelf....you don't need anything...It will come down to whether or not it is actually "occupiable"....
 
I tend to agree with @steveray. I do not think this is "occupiable space" per the definition in Chapter 2. How many businesses use attics for storage and are only accessed through a hatch with a ladder? How many crawl spaces are used for storage? Is each of these an "occupiable space"? Personally, I do not believe so.
 
This is a storage mezzanine. It is expressly identified for storage of stuff. 260sf². It does not qualify as an equipment platform because there is no equipment and they call it a storage mezzanine....to store stuff. The proposal is for rolling stairs, not permanent, not a ships ladder, not an alternating tread device. At 260' an alternating tread device would not be allowed, as anything other than an I-3, a ship's ladder would not be allowed, and as already pointed out, a permanent ladder is not permitted from an occupied space, then again, it can't be an occupiable space if it doesn't have a compliant MOE.... So, this circular code rears it's ugly head again. By definition it is only a mezzanine if it is an intermediate level and it meets section 505 and by extension ch. 10. So if it doesn't meet ch. 10 then it isn't a mezzanine...

If it is a level between the floor and ceiling of a story BUT it does not comply with one of the MOE's in ch. 10, then it can't be a mezzanine or an occupiable space, so what is it? They have a similar area in another part of the building, but they don't provide any MOE, no ladder, nothing. That is a shelf, no more discussion needed. But this one, they originally showed a set of stairs, with no details, so I asked. The response is "rolling stairs". They would be well served and I would be perfectly happy if they didn't mention a "rolling stair" and to call it a shelf (or nothing at all) and walk away, but they don't. As it is, they are asking for approval of an element that is not covered by the code unless I have missed something.

The stair below is the idea. They use them all the time at HD, but not as a MOE from a floor or intermediate level.

[BG] MEZZANINE. An intermediate level or levels
between the floor and ceiling of any story and in accordance
with Section 505.

505.2.2 Means of egress. The means of egress for mezzanines
shall comply with the applicable provisions of Chapter
10.

1689196213705.png
 
classicT said:
It's not a mezzanine. Call it a built in shelf.
Click to expand...
This is what I would prefer, but when the plans call it a storage mezzanine and provide a rolling stair it puts me in a bit of a box.
 
Sifu said:
This is a storage mezzanine. It is expressly identified for storage of stuff. 260sf². It does not qualify as an equipment platform because there is no equipment and they call it a storage mezzanine....to store stuff. The proposal is for rolling stairs, not permanent, not a ships ladder, not an alternating tread device. At 260' an alternating tread device would not be allowed, as anything other than an I-3, a ship's ladder would not be allowed, and as already pointed out, a permanent ladder is not permitted from an occupied space, then again, it can't be an occupiable space if it doesn't have a compliant MOE.... So, this circular code rears it's ugly head again. By definition it is only a mezzanine if it is an intermediate level and it meets section 505 and by extension ch. 10. So if it doesn't meet ch. 10 then it isn't a mezzanine...

If it is a level between the floor and ceiling of a story BUT it does not comply with one of the MOE's in ch. 10, then it can't be a mezzanine or an occupiable space, so what is it? They have a similar area in another part of the building, but they don't provide any MOE, no ladder, nothing. That is a shelf, no more discussion needed. But this one, they originally showed a set of stairs, with no details, so I asked. The response is "rolling stairs". They would be well served and I would be perfectly happy if they didn't mention a "rolling stair" and to call it a shelf (or nothing at all) and walk away, but they don't. As it is, they are asking for approval of an element that is not covered by the code unless I have missed something.

The stair below is the idea. They use them all the time at HD, but not as a MOE from a floor or intermediate level.

[BG] MEZZANINE. An intermediate level or levels
between the floor and ceiling of any story and in accordance
with Section 505.

505.2.2 Means of egress. The means of egress for mezzanines
shall comply with the applicable provisions of Chapter
10.

View attachment 10962
Click to expand...
That stair was never meant for exiting at the top. To get off the landing a person has to negotiate the bar that's in the way. The code expects a stairway and so would I.
 
Last edited:
OSHA issues also.

If they can reach onto the "shelf", and add and remove stored items, while remaining on the rolling warehouse ladder, it's fine. If instead they have to move from the ladder and walk on the "shelf", I think it's a mezzanine and requires permanent means of egress.

My biggest pet peeve about codes is this lable game, that you can change what safety features are required by changing the lable (usually done to reduce cost.)
 
ICE said:
That stair was never meant for exiting at the top. To get off the landing a person has to negotiate the bar that's in the way. The code expects a stairway and so would I.
Click to expand...
I will just make the comment that a compliant MOE must be provided from the mezzanine. If it gets a stair, great. If it becomes a shelf, great.
 
@ ~ @

Sifu, I do not see the problem as being yours........[They]
have boxed themselves in to this corner by labeling it a
mezzanine...........You simply state the applicable Code &
Sections, and state that a compliant MOE must be provided.
Then let it spill where it will !

IMO, ...you are doing what you have been trained & required
to do.

@ ~ @
 
Sifu said:
This is what I would prefer, but when the plans call it a storage mezzanine and provide a rolling stair it puts me in a bit of a box.
Click to expand...
Ahh. I see. I would then agree with your assertion.

north star said:
@ ~ @

Sifu, I do not see the problem as being yours........[They]
have boxed themselves in to this corner by labeling it a
mezzanine...........You simply state the applicable Code &
Sections, and state that a compliant MOE must be provided.
Then let it spill where it will !

IMO, ...you are doing what you have been trained & required
to do.

@ ~ @
Click to expand...
Exactly!
 
The only way a rolling stair might be acceptable is if the wheels were spring loaded so the stair couldn't move while somebody is on it.
 
Rick18071 said:
I still would not allow the wheeled stairway
Click to expand...
Not a permanent piece of equipment. It is no different than a ladder - it is not regulated by the building code.

This equipment (rolling stair), much like a ladder or scaffolding, is regulated under OSHA or the state equivalent.
 
This is the circular code: If we have an occupied space, used for storage it needs a compliant MOE. But if we have a space, used for storage without a compliant MOE, then it is not occupied, and needs no MOE. I am thinking I could simply state that the storage space without a compliant MOE is an unoccupied space and not subject to ch. 10 for MOE, and that the use of the rolling stair is not reviewed as a MOE. The problem is it is patently obvious that it is intended for people to move frequently to and from it (on the rolling stair), there are guards around it, and they call it a mezzanine, which by definition must have an MOE. I will have a conversation with the architect.
 
classicT said:
Not a permanent piece of equipment. It is no different than a ladder - it is not regulated by the building code.

This equipment (rolling stair), much like a ladder or scaffolding, is regulated under OSHA or the state equivalent.
Click to expand...
Exceptional interpretation. And if it's not a structure regulated by Code, it's not a Code-compliant means of egress.
 
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