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No Hot Water - Habitability timeframe

JimmyTreeX

JimmyTreeX

GREENHORN
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
45
Location
Upstate NY
Hello All,

I want to start by saying (again) how great it is to have a forum like this to be able to ask questions and get answers/perspectives from other inspectors. I’m sure most of you go through the same thing as I do, which is working with superiors who have only done things one way and they hate the thought of change. Even after working as a code inspector for 17 years, I still have so many questions. Today I wanted to ask about no hot water:

We often run into this, sometimes it’s accidental, sometimes it’s obvious that the owner did it maliciously (although we can rarely prove that). So we cite the owner and demand that the hot water be restored within 3 days (we tell them to get it repaired immediately, but we give an official 3 day notice). If they don’t, our process has been to ticket the owner and declare the dwelling unfit for human habitation to be vacated in 3 days. This is how our office has dealt with this since I started 17 years ago.

Well a couple years ago I started realizing that yes, hot water is essential, but it’s not life threatening. They also still have water, so they still have their toilets, etc. So I figured having cold water and a place to live is better than cold water and getting put out on the street in 3 days. I do still agree that the dwelling is not fit for habitation, but I think we should be giving people the option of up to 30 days before vacating. It’s not their fault that they don’t have hot water (most of the time… non-payment for gas is a different story, mainly because the power would most likely be shut off too).

So my questions is: how long would you/do you give a tenant without hot water? How do you handle these situations? Sometimes the owner is ok with paying the fine if it means they get to vacate the tenant, so enforcement is ineffective. I just wanted to get another take on the situation.

Thank you.
 
My first thought is if this order not to occupy has an interaction with a tenant's ability to break a lease or withhold rent. This could be significant leverage for the tenant to get the hot water restored.
 
steveray said:
Here, if we put them out, we put them up.....So we try not to put people out where feasible...In a rental situation I would put a pretty short timeline on it....
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I’ve said for years that I wish we had the resources to do that. We do give them paperwork that if they bring it to social services, they can apply for emergency housing, but that’s only if they qualify. I hate when people ask “well what am i supposed to do?Where am I supposed to go,” and I just have to shrug my shoulders and say “I don’t know.” I work in a city of 70k+ people, with a lot of out-of-of town slumlords, most of which are LLCs, so declaring a unit or building unfit/unsafe is way too common. I had to declare 11 separate addresses unfit for human habitation in 4 days a few years back. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that it would cost a hefty price if we put people up when we declared a building unfit (even though I wish we did).
 
We have an administrative citation process that results in a $100 fine per day, per violation. If it's a rental, it's the owner's responsibility to provide hot water, and keep up with the maintenance of systems. If we found an otherwise habitable unit that didn't have hot water, the owner would receive a letter that states they are accruing a $100 fine per day, from the date of inspection. We have the authority to waive that fine if they fix it in a timely manner, we also have the authority to lien the property if they don't. Some quick math will usually encourage them to get right on it.
 
Joe.B said:
We have an administrative citation process that results in a $100 fine per day, per violation. If it's a rental, it's the owner's responsibility to provide hot water, and keep up with the maintenance of systems. If we found an otherwise habitable unit that didn't have hot water, the owner would receive a letter that states they are accruing a $100 fine per day, from the date of inspection. We have the authority to waive that fine if they fix it in a timely manner, we also have the authority to lien the property if they don't. Some quick math will usually encourage them to get right on it.
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I wish we could fine....We have to submit to the State for arrest warrant once they ignore our order that needs to be legally served....
 
steveray said:
I wish we could fine....We have to submit to the State for arrest warrant once they ignore our order that needs to be legally served....
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Ouch! Is there state law that would prevent you from adopting a citation process?
 
So my questions is:
how long would you/do you give a tenant without hot water? I would not be contacting the tenant since by NY State law the property owner is required to provide hot water
How do you handle these situations? Deal with the property owner only.
Sometimes the owner is ok with paying the fine if it means they get to vacate the tenant, so enforcement is ineffective. It needs to be a daily fine that keeps increasing after so many days. Example: $100 per day for 15 days then it increases to $250 per day for 30 days, Then $500 per day for every day after that.

Now you have given the tenant legal recourse to go after the landlord in court for violating the "Warranty of Habitability" law.

NYS Open Legislation | NYSenate.gov

www.nysenate.gov www.nysenate.gov

Sometimes you need to get into their deep pockets to get compliance.
 
Joe.B said:
Ouch! Is there state law that would prevent you from adopting a citation process?
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Currently trying to figure that out....As violations of our building code is a State misdemeanor, it gets weird....In a double jeopardy or State trumps local sorta way...
 
Slightly off-topic: back in the 1990s one of my affordable senior housing developer clients did their one-year post-construction inspection with HUD. In one wing of the building, in apartment after apartment, the tenants had pots and pans full of water scattered around the kitchen and even in the bathroom.
It turned out that the plumbing contractor had plumbed the cold water risers with hot water. The tenants had been using the pots and pans to cool the water down for everyday use. Apparently even the toilets would have steaming water on cold mornings.

Tenants were asked, why they had done this workaround rather than informing management about the lack of cold water? Their response indicated that as low-income seniors, mostly immigrants/ESL, they were afraid that if they complained they might get kicked out, and this new building was the best housing they'd ever had.
It was carefully explained to them that everything was under warranty, and the owner/operator WANTED to know if something was wrong because it was our last chance to make it right at no cost to any of them or the owner.
 
Yikes said:
Slightly off-topic: back in the 1990s one of my affordable senior housing developer clients did their one-year post-construction inspection with HUD. In one wing of the building, in apartment after apartment, the tenants had pots and pans full of water scattered around the kitchen and even in the bathroom.
It turned out that the plumbing contractor had plumbed the cold water risers with hot water. The tenants had been using the pots and pans to cool the water down for everyday use. Apparently even the toilets would have steaming water on cold mornings.
Click to expand...

We encountered the same issue when I was Staff Architect for a public housing authority in the 1980s.
 
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