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No roof sprinklers

Francis Vineyard

Francis Vineyard

Registered User
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
3,105
Location
Charlottesville, VA
2009 IBC

1,000 liter use-closed system cryogenic oxygen tank located in a detached structure (H-3 occupancy). The proposed structure to have an open steel grate cover for a roof; any thoughts about the sprinkler install without a roof or code section to require a roof is appreciated.
 
Is this actually a building or is it screen walls and a security screen overtop to deter vandals?

Is ground under tank is course crushed stone for heat sink?

How much ventilation around the base of walls?

Pay attention to where the truck parks--asphalt pavement is a big no no--small spill and the pavement becomes a shock, and friction sensative explosive; dropped wrench trying to fix leak has cost a hospital many windows and the trucker some time in the hospital.
 
Frank said:
Is this actually a building or is it screen walls and a security screen overtop to deter vandals?Is ground under tank is course crushed stone for heat sink?

How much ventilation around the base of walls?

Pay attention to where the truck parks--asphalt pavement is a big no no--small spill and the pavement becomes a shock, and friction sensative explosive; dropped wrench trying to fix leak has cost a hospital many windows and the trucker some time in the hospital.
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Roof is security screen of galv. metal grate supported on W5x16 galv. beams.

Concrete pavement and tank sits on 8" reinforced concrete slab, brick veneered CMU walls with fire doors. Steel bollards filled with concrete on sides exposed to vehicle traffic and removable for gas supplier.

No ventilation details provided for base of walls.

This enclosure will also include a 1,000 liter tank of cryogenic nitrogen fed to lab. on the 4th floor.

From research there is a report about water will freeze when contact with liquid oxygen and could make matters worst; but that's not a code!
 
cda said:
roof and sprinklers
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[F] 903.2.5 Group H.

​


Automatic sprinkler systems shall beprovided in high-hazard occupancies as required in Sections903.2.5.1 through 903.2.5.3.

​
[F] 903.2.5.1 General.

​


An automatic sprinkler system

​
shall be installed in Group H occupancies.

 
Francis Vineyard said:
Roof is security screen of galv. metal grate supported on W5x16 galv. beams.Concrete pavement and tank sits on 8" reinforced concrete slab, brick veneered CMU walls with fire doors. Steel bollards filled with concrete on sides exposed to vehicle traffic and removable for gas supplier.

No ventilation details provided for base of walls.

This enclosure will also include a 1,000 liter tank of cryogenic nitrogen fed to lab. on the 4th floor.

From research there is a report about water will freeze when contact with liquid oxygen and could make matters worst; but that's not a code!
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With just security screen I would say not a building and no sprinklers required for the outdoor storage.

For indoor storage the sprinklers control an exposing fire preventing rapid release of the oxygen intensifying the fire.

Water can be used to warm and disperse cyrogenic liquid spills.
 
tmurray said:
The sprinklers are never going to go off. There is nothing to keep the heat in the "building".
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Absolutely; just need the code language to hang my hat on. I'm going in circles trying to find it.

3201.1 Scope.

Oxidizing cryogenic fluids, including oxygen, shall comply

with NFPA 55 and Chapter 40, as applicable.

4001.1 Scope. The storage and use of oxidizing materials shall

be in accordance with this chapter and Chapter 27. Oxidizing

gases shall also comply with Chapter 30. Oxidizing cryogenic

fluids shall also comply with Chapter 32.

2704.5 Automatic sprinkler systems. Indoor storage areas

and storage buildings shall be equipped throughout with an

approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section

903.3.1.1. The design of the sprinkler system shall not be

less than that required for Ordinary Hazard Group 2 with a minimum

design area of 3,000 square feet (279 m2). Where the

materials or storage arrangement are required by other regulations

to be provided with a higher level of sprinkler system protection,

the higher level of sprinkler system protection shall be

provided.

BUILDING. Any structure used or intended for supporting

or sheltering any use or occupancy.

AREA, BUILDING. The area included within surrounding

exterior walls (or exterior walls and fire walls) exclusive of

vent shafts and courts. Areas of the building not provided with

surrounding walls shall be included in the building area if such

areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof

or floor above.
 
Look the wording for outside storage vs inside storage

Chapter 32

Inside talks about complying with ibc where outside has no such language

Think about the hospitals you see the tanks outside all the time with no provisions except safety, tank design
 
cda said:
Look the wording for outside storage vs inside storageChapter 32

Inside talks about complying with ibc where outside has no such language

Think about the hospitals you see the tanks outside all the time with no provisions except safety, tank design
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Hospital and other storage can have unlimited "gas" bottles; but not 1,000 liter containers of liquid oxygen.
 
I'm with Frank and we used a (vehicle fill side) bonded/grounded fence and gate to prevent building definition. Sprinklers not desirable with outdoor storage. Your code analysis is proper and possibly use lack of roof to not define building.
 
Francis Vineyard said:
Hospital and other storage can have unlimited "gas" bottles; but not 1,000 liter containers of liquid oxygen.
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Why...... ....
 
ifc 2009

not sure if table 2703.1.1(3) gives you your answer you are looking for
 
cda said:
does it look something like this::http://www.sunews.net/img/37/article_zoom/u32_KCH-oxygen-supply-tank-12222010.jpg
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Yes!

So the interpretation is this is an outdoor storage area (other than on roofs and top of canopies) where not required to be enclosed by walls except for provision to protect from vehicle impacts and for security reasons the intent for the sprinkler provision is to protect fire areas of indoor (storage) buildings?

cda, speaking with the Fire Marshals in this area haven't seen these size tanks at hospitals . . . yet!
 
Francis Vineyard said:
Yes!So the interpretation is this is an outdoor storage area (other than on roofs and top of canopies) where not required to be enclosed by walls except for provision to protect from vehicle impacts and for security reasons the intent for the sprinkler provision is to protect fire areas of indoor (storage) buildings?

cda, speaking with the Fire Marshals in this area haven't seen these size tanks at hospitals . . . yet!
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that is my feeling

strange have seen these type tanks setting around hospitals for many blue moons?
 
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