NYC Fire Code vs NY Building Code Stair Signs

[yehudasu]

Hi

I make signs in New York City. My company has been making signs for elevator banks since way before I got here.
Pretty standard signs - a diagram of the floor, "you are here," and large ""IN CASE OF FIRE, USE STAIRS UNLESS OTHERWISE INSTRUCTED".
This is all per §27-01 (b) (1).

The section of NYC's building code requiring the same signage (3002.3) requires "IN FIRE EMERGENCY, DO NOT USE ELEVATOR. USE THE EXIT STAIRS."

We've only ever done the former, and none of our clients has failed an inspection for this. Is there any reason to change?

Thanks for any insight

 

[Joe.B]

I'd wager that it's because the first statement doesn't explicitly tell the user not to use the elevator. If you're trying to prevail in a lawsuit those are the kinds of things that come under scrutiny. Someone dies in a fire because they used the elevator, lawyer for building says, "we told them to use the stairs!" Lawyer for them family says, "Yeah, but you didn't tell them not to use the elevator." Codes are written in blood. Someone died, someone got sued, rules got changed.

 

[yehudasu]

Yeah, that's my thought - the fire code is definitely a newer language. But the NYC code still calls for the former?!

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I don't know which code's language takes precedence, but I can help you understand why the language might have gotten more explicit. Older elevator controls have an unfortunate side effect of delivering the elevators to floors where fires are burning, and opening the doors to the fire. More modern elevator control systems have overcome this, but there must be thousands of elevators around New York City that still have the old control systems. With newer control systems, in the event of a fire alarm the elevators are programmed to return to the ground floor so they'll be available for fire fighting personnel, so people on upper floors can push the call button but the elevator will never come.

That's why the Fire Department doesn't want people trying to use the elevators for emergency egress.

Can Elevators Still Be Used During a Fire Alarm? | Affiliated Customer Service Inc. | Sales - Service - Testing - Inspection | Chicago, Illinois

We've all seen the signage in elevator lobbies to use the stairs in event of fire. Some signs even say the elevators are out of service in event of fire, but that's not always true. People may become unsure of what to do when they see an elevator door open on the 30th floor during a fire

www.affiliatedinc.com

 

[steveray]

Hi

I make signs in New York City. My company has been making signs for elevator banks since way before I got here.
Pretty standard signs - a diagram of the floor, "you are here," and large ""IN CASE OF FIRE, USE STAIRS UNLESS OTHERWISE INSTRUCTED".
This is all per §27-01 (b) (1).

The section of NYC's building code requiring the same signage (3002.3) requires "IN FIRE EMERGENCY, DO NOT USE ELEVATOR. USE THE EXIT STAIRS."

And that is the problem with putting code requirements in statute....If there is no wiggle room, you have to do both....

 

[BN4537]

You can change over now at your leisure and minimize the expense, or wait until a new guy gets in at the code department and starts enforcing what the code says. That might never happen, but if it does it will likely be at an inconvenient time. You have the opportunity to eliminate a problem that your future self might have to deal with.

Unless it's expensive to change. Then it's probably smarter to roll the dice and hope it never comes up.

 

[e hilton]

Since the OP only provides the signs, would he be correct in following the purchase order from the builder, owner or architect?

 

[yehudasu]

I've reached out to the city - the state is always much more responsive in my experience, so we'll see what happens here.

I don't know what others' experience has been - if this is specific to signage and/or this region, but I would say it's fewer than 10% of our projects where the architect/builder specifies signage properly with a full schedule. It's much more common for us to get floorplans (sometimes even correct ones!) very late in the game, when the developer suddenly remembers that they can't pass an inspection without proper signage. It's a rare project where we're not also consulting on the signage.

 

[e hilton]

The commercial projects i have been involved in as a pm, the aor includes all signage on the cd’s. The gc then provides and installs what’s called out.

 

[yehudasu]

that'll happen sometimes! Especially with institutional and government. But there are just tons of projects, from small to large, where that just doesn't happen.