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Having a long discussion about egress for a PD training center. Half is classroom type setting. The other side will be movable walls for tactical training and mat training. Architect is arguing this should be 20 net for classroom side and 50 net for tactical side (vocational). I do not feel these are correct load factors as both are associated with educational occupancy (K-12). I feel 15 net for classroom and unsure about how to calculate the tactical side as this is not really assembly so 5 net would be excessive. Any thoughts and opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.
I would try to go with a B occupancy, since it includes martial arts studios.
SECTION 304
BUSINESS GROUP B
304.1 Business Group B.
Business Group B occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for office, professional or service-type transactions, including storage of records and accounts. Business occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:
Airport traffic control towers
Ambulatory care facilities
Animal hospitals, kennels and pounds
Banks
Barber and beauty shops
Car wash
Civic administration
Clinic, outpatient
Dry cleaning and laundries: pick-up and delivery stations and self-service
Educational occupancies for students above the 12th grade including higher education laboratories
Electronic data processing
Food processing establishments and commercial kitchens not associated with restaurants, cafeterias and similar dining facilities not more than 2,500 square feet (232 m2) in area
Laboratories: testing and research
Motor vehicle showrooms
Post offices
Print shops
Professional services (architects, attorneys, dentists, physicians, engineers, etc.)
Radio and television stations
Telephone exchanges
Training and skill development not in a school or academic program (this shall include, but not be limited to, tutoring centers, martial arts studios, gymnastics and similar uses regardless of the ages served, and where not classified as a Group A occupancy)
I would actually say 20 net is appropriate for the classroom. Per the code commentary: "If a specific type of facility is not found in the table, the occupancy it most closely resembles should be utilized. For example, a training room in a business occupancy may utilize the 20 SF net established for educational classroom areas." The occupancy type (Business) is not necessarily related to the floor loading, so there is no issue with using a classroom occupant load for a space that isn't education-related.
If it is possible that the entire space can be used for any single purpose you’ll want to calculate the occupant load using the largest occupant load factor applied to the entire area of the room.
Table 1004.5 has a column labeled “Function of Space,” not “Occupancy.” The function of a K-12 classroom is the same as the function of a police training classroom. Someone is at the front trying to teach people sitting in the room - doesn’t matter if they’re at desks, in chairs with clipboards in their laps, or whatever.
Out of curiosity, what is your role in the project to be having this discussion with the architect, sounds like you’re in a position to correct the architect.
How many more occupants would there be if 5 s.f./occupant were to be applied? How would that effect the egress system or other things, such as required plumbing fixtures? Basically I’m wondering - assuming you’re in a position to correct/direct the architect - why they would push back on possibly oversizing the egress system.
I think 5 s.f./occupant seems dense for what I picture the tactical training to involve. 50 s.f./occupant for exercise rooms might be OK. It makes me think of a martial arts studio, here’s a link to a thread that started to discuss martial arts studios, see Post #8 and following, maybe there’s something useful there for you:
I am working on a real estate office. There is a 648 sf training room and a 555 sf break room, the other 6200 sf is office use . The reviewer wants me to put panic hardware on all of the exit/ exit access doors. See below for permit comment and my response. He came back with the exact same...
I'm not entirely clear on what is involved in indoor tactical training, but it sounds like it may be exercise related/adjacent. If that's the case, I second the 1 per 50 gross suggestion - or 1 per 35 gross if there's no equipment involved.
I'm not entirely clear on what is involved in indoor tactical training, but it sounds like it may be exercise related/adjacent. If that's the case, I second the 1 per 50 gross suggestion - or 1 per 35 gross if there's no equipment involved.
Before assuming, I suggest you ask and find out. My guess would be that "tactical" training has nothing to do with exercise. It more likely has to do with practicing building clearing operations, dynamic entry events (door smashing by a SWAT team "stack"), school shooter drills, and perhaps hostage situations.
We don't have to use Table 1004.5 in situations that aren't addressed in the table. The building official is allowed to make his/her own determination.
We don't have to use Table 1004.5 in situations that aren't addressed in the table. The building official is allowed to make his/her own determination.
Very true, IBC 1004.5 says, “Where an intended function is not listed in Table 1004.5, the building official shall establish a function based on a listed function that most nearly resembles the intended function.” The original poster just might be a building official, the logo by their name is for the City of Newton, Kansas.
If it is possible that the entire space can be used for any single purpose you’ll want to calculate the occupant load using the largest occupant load factor applied to the entire area of the room.
Many years ago the firm I worked for was engaged as code consultants on a university gymnasium project. They wanted to build a HUGE gym -- three full-sized basketball courts, but no bleachers. It was for practice and intramural games -- they had the "game" court in another building, which was semi-historic and in full uses. So the architects had a couple of doors and they were going to declare an occupant load of 49 people, based on three games with 10 people each, plus a few spectators and officials.
So, knowing the university, the first question we asked was if this was going to be the largest indoor space on the campus. Answer: "Oh, yes, by far the largest."
So then we asked if it rained on graduation day, might they consider holding graduation in this building? "Well, of course."
How many people attend graduation? "Around three thousand."
I have recently completed two police training facilities, and for both, I used 20 nsf/occupant for the classroom areas and 50 gsf/occupant for the tactical training areas. Unless the rooms exceed 49 occupants (Group A-3), I would classify the areas as Group B occupancies.
If it is possible that the entire space can be used for any single purpose you’ll want to calculate the occupant load using the largest occupant load factor applied to the entire area of the room.
Table 1004.5 has a column labeled “Function of Space,” not “Occupancy.” The function of a K-12 classroom is the same as the function of a police training classroom. Someone is at the front trying to teach people sitting in the room - doesn’t matter if they’re at desks, in chairs with clipboards in their laps, or whatever.
Out of curiosity, what is your role in the project to be having this discussion with the architect, sounds like you’re in a position to correct the architect.
How many more occupants would there be if 5 s.f./occupant were to be applied? How would that effect the egress system or other things, such as required plumbing fixtures? Basically I’m wondering - assuming you’re in a position to correct/direct the architect - why they would push back on possibly oversizing the egress system.
I think 5 s.f./occupant seems dense for what I picture the tactical training to involve. 50 s.f./occupant for exercise rooms might be OK. It makes me think of a martial arts studio, here’s a link to a thread that started to discuss martial arts studios, see Post #8 and following, maybe there’s something useful there for you:
I am working on a real estate office. There is a 648 sf training room and a 555 sf break room, the other 6200 sf is office use . The reviewer wants me to put panic hardware on all of the exit/ exit access doors. See below for permit comment and my response. He came back with the exact same...
I work in a small jurisdiction and I wear many hats. I am the inspector, plans examiner, and "Building official" (per say), zoning enforcement, ETC.. Whatever needs done. Any bad news is normally relayed by me. I appreciate the insight. Also this is a city project so I have a little more say on the situation.
I have recently completed two police training facilities, and for both, I used 20 nsf/occupant for the classroom areas and 50 gsf/occupant for the tactical training areas. Unless the rooms exceed 49 occupants (Group A-3), I would classify the areas as Group B occupancies.
Thank you can I ask why you went with the 50 gross. This is an area that could be used for ceremonies etc.. there is not permanent walls and this could be completely opened up. The walls will be movable for entry training etc.. on other days this could be used to do evidence investigation and searches on cars constantly learning in the field. Just asking out of curiosity.
If the space will be opened up for ceremonies, it sounds like 1 person per 7 sf net space for the entire area would be appropriate (Assembly w/o fixed seats, chairs only - not fixed.)
This is an area that could be used for ceremonies etc.. there is not permanent walls and this could be completely opened up. The walls will be movable for entry training etc.. on other days this could be used to do evidence investigation and searches on cars constantly learning in the field.
Thanks for the additional information on the use of the space. Do you know the approximate area of the space?
I don’t know if this room is on an exterior wall and what the program for the space is, but I could imagine adding a few extra doors around the space to provide extra flexibility in setting up the partitions for the training scenarios. You’ve probably already thought about cameras so training sessions can be recorded and reviewed, maybe that’s covered by body cameras.
Speaking of which, there’s a thread about use of body cameras by building departments, maybe you have a few thoughts to share:
As a result of more than a few rather unpleasant situation in recent memory, our department has purchased body cameras for the inspectors. They just arrived -- they're still in the boxes. Next step is deciding when to operate them, and if anything is exempt. Does anyone work for a department...
