Occupancy Load of a Chuch Foyer

[joetheinspector]

Table 1004.1.1 IBC 2009

What floor area in SQ. Ft. per occupant would you calculate for a church foyer?

 

[mark handler]

IMO

A church foyer is an accessory area to the A and has same occupants as the church. The foyer should be the same as a lobby or corridor.

 

[Builder Bob]

Except for Easter Sunday and Christmas Eve, Weddings and some funerals.............. I have seen the foyer being equipted with big screen televisions and speakers to allow the overflow to see the ceremony.

The only thing that i do for foyers is to eliminate the required width of egress from the total area....... If they use the foyer as described above, they will still have to keep the Means of Egress Open.....

 

[brudgers]

One per five sf.

 

[mark handler]

One per five sf.

Overkill, and not required per code

 

[mtlogcabin]

Overkill, and not required per code

99% of the time it would be overkill but I have seen some churches where the foyer would have a larger OL than the sanctuary and as others have pointed out are used for overflow during special events. If the foyer OL was larger than the sanctuary I only be concerned with having the proper exit width and would not use the larger number to drive other code requirements.

 

[brudgers]

Overkill, and not required per code

Actually, it's underkill. And that's what life safety is all about.

 

[joetheinspector]

Mark

I agree with you. Is there somewhere in the code that this is addressed?

 

[mark handler]

MarkI agree with you. Is there somewhere in the code that this is addressed?

Not any more. The older codes adressed it but the powers that be realized the "standing" Occupancy Load should be used only in specified uses per the revised table. It is up to the BO.

If you classify the Foyer as an A, then you use the "standing" Occupancy Load. But if the load is less than 50 it is a "B" and the "standing" Occupancy Load does not apply.

So it depends on the size and use.

 

[mark handler]

What floor area in SQ. Ft. per occupant would you calculate for a church foyer?

What is the primary use of the area?

If there is an occasional “over use”, such as overflow seating does not warrant the classification as an A.

It would be the same as office having a Christmas office party. You do not require an office to be reclassified as an “assembly use” .

The primary use is a corridor,

 

[Frank]

What is the primary use of the area?If there is an occasional “over use”, such as overflow seating does not warrant the classification as an A.

It would be the same as office having a Christmas office party. You do not require an office to be reclassified as an “assembly use” .

The primary use is a corridor,

Occasional "over use" can be a major problem--The Station fire occurred during a period of occasional "over use" they rarely had more than the posted occupant load in the building other than during an occasional big name event when they took out the tables to make room for more bodies.

We have required TCOs for large gathering events such as new years eve party in a covered mall-- one of the conditions of the TCO was that the stores be closed during the event so that there was adequate egress and toilet facilities.

Alot depends on the configuration of the foyer or commons area--many are used as gathering spaces and for receptions and the like in addition to the high holiday overflow crowds. They are definately an A use and if potentially to be used for overflow seating then a 7 sq ft occupant load is appropriate, if overflow standing space 5. The exits and fire protection features have to be designed for the maximum crowd, not the typical occupant load.

 

[mark handler]

Occasional "over use" can be a major problem--The Station fire occurred during a period of occasional "over use" they rarely had more than the posted occupant load in the building other than during an occasional big name event when they took out the tables to make room for more bodies..

As we all know the station fire tragedy was not from overcrowding. Exits were covered and blocked, illegal pyrotechnics and non-code allowed “acoustical treatments” on the ceilings and walls.

 

[brudgers]

Not any more. The older codes adressed it but the powers that be realized the "standing" Occupancy Load should be used only in specified uses per the revised table. It is up to the BO. If you classify the Foyer as an A, then you use the "standing" Occupancy Load. But if the load is less than 50 it is a "B" and the "standing" Occupancy Load does not apply. So it depends on the size and use.

Uh...read 1004.1.1

 

[Frank]

As we all know the station fire tragedy was not from overcrowding. Exits were covered and blocked, illegal pyrotechnics and non-code allowed “acoustical treatments” on the ceilings and walls.

All of those were factors, but overcrowding was also an issue that contributed to the disaster at least 440 people were in a building with a 404 occupancy limit. Front exit was blocked with people. Side exit was denied to some by bouncers but then was open.

All exits were used

20 Identified as using Stage door

12 Identified as using Kitchen door

46 Identified as using Barroom door

54 Identified as using Barroom windows

90 Identified as using Front door

25 Identified as using Greenhouse Windows

93 Survivors escaped by unknown means

88+ Bodies removed from inside after the fire

 

[mark handler]

Uh...read

Okay,,,,As I stated before, what is the use.....the intended use of a Foyer is not a part of the A use.

1004.1.1

Where an is not listed in Table 1004.1.1, the

building official shall establish a use based on a listed use

that most nearly resembles the intended use.

How big is it?

And, as stated before, what is the intended use?

 

[mark handler]

All of those were factors, but overcrowding was also an issue that contributed to the disaster at least 440 people were in a building with a 404 occupancy limit. Front exit was blocked with people. Side exit was denied to some by bouncers but then was open.All exits were used

20 Identified as using Stage door

12 Identified as using Kitchen door

46 Identified as using Barroom door

54 Identified as using Barroom windows

90 Identified as using Front door

25 Identified as using Greenhouse Windows

93 Survivors escaped by unknown means

88+ Bodies removed from inside after the fire

Three emergency exits were available.

The main entrance located on the north side of the structure where almost everybody in the structure entered. A single door located west near the performance platform was another exit. (This door was noted to swing inward on an inspection report dated 10 Nov 2001). A third exit was located on the east side of the structure near the main bar. The main bar also had large windows on either side of it. A forth door was located in the kitchen and would only have been known by the staff or somebody familiar with the structure.

http://aerospace.ceas.uc.edu/content/dam/aero/docs/fire/Papers/StationNightClubFire.pdf

 

[brudgers]

Okay,,,,As I stated before, what is the use.....the intended use of a Foyer is not a part of the A use. 1004.1.1 Where an is not listed in Table 1004.1.1, the building official shall establish a use based on a listed use that most nearly resembles the intended use. How big is it? And, as stated before, what is the intended use?

Typically the foyer of a church is intended as a place for people to gather. Use for business operations is ancillary at best.

 

[fatboy]

Not sure about the churches the rest of you folks have been in, but the ones I've been in, the foyer is where everyone gathers after the service to visit. 5 s.f./person could be light in my experience.

 

[peach]

I don't know where you're coming up that the foyer isn't part of the "A" occupancy - it is. The 5 sf per person in Table 1004.1.1 is the maximum floor space per person, not the minimum and that's the number you use for exiting, not the maximum number of people (it's the mimimum number of people you need to provide exiting for).

 

[Darren Emery]

Not sure about the churches the rest of you folks have been in, but the ones I've been in, the foyer is where everyone gathers after the service to visit. 5 s.f./person could be light in my experience.

Agreed. We are currently expanding our facility - specifically to gain more foyer space. It gets absolutely packed in there between services. And not just for a few minutes - no one wants to leave (great problem to have!)

 

[mark handler]

Church Foyer

entrance hall of church, corridor leading to a church sanctuary, screened area at end of nave.

Not a gathering space or social hall, As stated before, All depends on the size, and use.

 

[peach]

entrance HALL (like dance HALL) - it's part of the assembly occupancy.

 

[mark handler]

entrance HALL (like dance HALL) - it's part of the assembly occupancy.

Or a Hall in a house

All depends on the size, and use.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

We review each on a case by case basis and rely heavily on the RDP to assign the specific use/function of church foyer spaces per their design. Chapter 10 does not assign an occupant load based upon occupancy classification. Churches are not all the same, and their occupant loads are not necessarily easy to assign, especially in foyers. In my experience most catholic and apolostic congregations (circulation only) use their foyer spaces much differently than evangelical and ecumenical congregations (assembly/gatherings/social areas). Some even use their spaces for 48 hour lock-ins, which involve sleeping and could potentially lead to other code requirements.

If the RDP wants to assign a 1/5sf occupant load to that area, we will gladly accept it, as this is the most restrictive. On the other hand, if they want to show these areas as a different use/function, with a lower occupant load per square footage, they need to provide us with sufficient documentation to satisfy the reduced occupant load option in Chapter 10(e.g. letter of operations signed by owner/operator).