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Pool Closed Until Further Notice

mark handler

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Pool Closed Until Further Notice

Posted by Walter Olson

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/pool-closed-until-further-notice/

Tomorrow is a deadline that looms large for worried pool operators at hotels and public recreation facilities across the country, as USA Today reports:

Hoteliers must have pool lifts to provide disabled people equal access to pools and whirlpools, or at least have a plan in place to acquire a lift. If they don’t, they face possible civil penalties of as much as $55,000.

As Conn Carroll at the Washington Examiner explains, the mandate has taken an even more irrational form than might have been expected. Because the elevator lifts are space-consuming, unsightly, potential hazards to curious children, and unlikely to be used very often, many pool operators assumed it would be enough to purchase a portable lift that could be wheeled over to poolside on user request and stored when not in use. No such luck: the Obama administration has announced that the lifts must not only be of permanent construction, but must apply to each separate “water feature”, so that a pool with adjoining spa would need two of them. “Each lift costs between $3,000 and $10,000 and installation can add $5,000 to $10,000 to the total.” Many budget hostelries are expected to simply shutter their pools until further notice rather than take the risk that entrepreneurial fast-buck artists will begin filing complaints against them for cash settlements, as in California’s notorious ADA filing mills.

I think Carroll probably goes too far when he suggests that the Obama administration made the rules unreasonable in order to give its friends in the ADA bar more litigation to file. The problem is more that this administration (and not just this one) has outsourced its thinking on the law to advocates in the legal academia-disabled rights-”public interest law” community, which tends to embrace interpretations and applications of the law geared to advance ambitious versions of social change. In the pool case, the federal appointee in charge (according to this blog post) was Samuel Bagenstos, who after his stint in the Obama Justice Department has now returned to legal academia, where he is perhaps the leading proponent of expansive ADA interpretation. (His view of abusive ADA suits — he puts the term “abusive” in quotation marks — is here.) Academia’s other best-known advocate of an expansively interpreted ADA (and a drafter of the law) is Chai Feldblum of Georgetown Law, who serves the Obama administration as head of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

Don’t look to Republicans for relief on this. The Bush administrations both pere et fils were consistently wretched on it, and a large bloc of GOP members of Congress predictably joins the Democrats in opposing legislative ideas for even modest rollback of the ADA’s most extreme applications.
 
Arizona resorts scramble to provide pool lifts for disabled

Posted: Mar 14, 2012 9:31 PM PDT

Updated: Mar 15, 2012 5:52 AM PDT

By Heather Moore

http://www.kpho.com/story/17162353/arizona-resorts-scramble-to-provide-pool-lifts-for-disabled

PHOENIX (CBS5) - Time is running out for cities and Valley resorts to upgrade their pools.

They have until Thursday, March 15, to add permanent pool lifts, and many of them aren't going to make the deadline.

Clarification on this new regulation just came down about six weeks ago to the American Hotel and Lodging Association, but it was passed in 2010 involving the Americans with Disabilities Act and access to pools.

"In all of my years I've never seen anything like this," said Debbie Johnson of the Arizona Lodging and Tourism Association.

Come Thursday, those big changes are mandated at 300,000 pools all across the country.

A new rule from the Department of Justice says a permanent chairlift is required for the disabled in every single pool and spa on any public facility.

"Right now a lot of people are scrambling to get this done with the concern that a portable lift or multiple portable lifts could be sufficient," explained Johnson.

Hundreds of Arizona resorts are among those affected.

The majority of them currently have a portable lift available upon request like the Royal Palms, but they say not one guest has asked for it.

"We've been open since 1997, and we've never used it," said Greg Miller of Destination Hotels and Resorts, which represents the Royal Palms.

Nevertheless, to be in compliance with the ADA, resort management has ordered five permanent lifts for their pools and spas at a cost of $40,000. They will have to shut those areas down this month, the busiest of the year, to install them.

"No one has any objection at all to being accommodating to a wheelchair user. We're very committed to that. This just seems a bit cumbersome," said Miller.

There are also the issues of the altered aesthetics with permanent large metal fixtures and more importantly, safety concerns and liability issues that go along with the new equipment.

"We have to then manage that and make sure that no one gets hurt using this thing inappropriately," Miller added.

Johnson believes some pools will be forced to close at smaller hotels and businesses all over the nation because of cost and liability issues, but she says no one is insensitive to the needs of disabled Americans. "Everybody has said, 'We understand. We want to be compliant and make sure we're accessible, but let's find a reasonable way to do it.'"

CBS 5 spoke with the city of Phoenix's Parks and Recreation Department, which operates 28 aquatic centers. They believe they're in compliance because they have a plan in place to install the lifts over the next five years.

Copyright 2012 KPHO (Meredith Corporation). All rights reserved.
 
mark handler said:
Pool Closed Until Further NoticePosted by Walter Olson

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/pool-closed-until-further-notice/

Don’t look to Republicans for relief on this. The Bush administrations both pere et fils were consistently wretched on it, and a large bloc of GOP members of Congress predictably joins the Democrats in opposing legislative ideas for even modest rollback of the ADA’s most extreme applications.
I vividly remember listening to the Dan Quayle- Al Gore vice presidential debate where there was a question regarding the then new ADA and they both agreed it was a good idea and was not going to cost anybody anything extra--I heard that and exclaimed to the wife--WTF are they smoking?

And yes alot of the ADA is a lawyers relief act.
 
Deadline for changes to federal disability law hits Utah, nation

http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile/53708559-78/ada-county-pools-accessible.html.csp

Building professionals and business owners, along with all levels of government, are on notice: As of Thursday, your buildings must not have architectural barriers that would hinder people with disabilities from using and enjoying what you have to offer.

Actually, that’s been the law of the land for more than 20 years. But in 2010, the U.S. Department of Justice adopted sweeping new design standards to supplant those enacted in 1991, with compliance expected by March 15, 2012.

What’s new is a special focus on places for recreation — including all gyms, bowling alleys, boating docks, swimming pools, amusement parks, fitness rooms and golf courses, both full-size and miniature — which were not covered in the original law.

Salt Lake County officials say they are in compliance. "We should be accessible to anybody who shows up" at any of the county’s swimming pools, said Wayne Johnson, a Parks and Recreation assistant division director.

At the Holladay Lions pool, people who swim with the University of Utah’s Therapeutic Recreation & Independent Lifestyles (TRAILS) program used the pool’s new wheelchair lift for the first time Wednesday, said program coordinator Tanja Kari.

In the past, participants needed helpers for a complex transfer from wheelchairs to the pool. The lift will allow them to be more independent.

"That’s our whole focus. We do everything out in the community," Kari said. "We are integrated into the core of Utah, doing all the same sports."

It’s private businesses that need to be watched, say advocates for disabled people. Think of all the parking lots, front desks, hotel pools, hot tubs and fitness rooms, golf courses, bank night deposit slots, you name it: They must be accessible unless proprietors can convince the Justice Department or courts that changes aren’t readily achievable without a high level of difficulty or expense.

It’s not enough just to say, "‘I can’t afford it,’" said Kevin Maher, the ADA expert for the Washington, D.C.-based American Hotel & Lodging Association.

The Americans With Disabilities Act aims to make all of society accessible to people with disabilities. Utah’s Disabled Rights Action Committee (DRAC) has prodded restaurants, service stations, banks and the Utah Transit Authority to comply with the law.

In June, DRAC member Barbara Toomer, who uses a wheelchair, sued Wells Fargo banks in Davis County because low concrete barriers made it impossible for her to reach their night depositories. A similar lawsuit against Wells Fargo in Salt Lake County was resolved, and the Davis County case is heading that way, said Salt Lake City civil-rights lawyer Brian Barnard, DRAC’s attorney.

Though the Justice Department is responsible for ADA compliance, there are no ADA "police." It’s up to individuals to report ADA violations. In Utah, the Disability Law Center and DRAC are willing to intervene and, if necessary, go to court.

Barnard said businesses often have ADA compliance specialists whose contacts are listed on web sites — another good place to lodge complaints. But if nothing is done, "OK, great, I’ll sue someone," he said. "The law’s been around a long time. These people really shouldn’t be warned or told to get in compliance."

Complying is just good business, Maher said. For the past 18 months, he said, his group has mounted an intensive education campaign for its member hoteliers.

"It’s a definite deadline. They have to have to have things done or have taken steps toward compliance," Maher said. "I’ve answered hundreds of calls from members."

Like all businesses, hotels have been required by the ADA to deal with building design and parking lots. The ADA allows "safe harbor" under the 1991 standards for business and government facilities not quite up to date as long as they make required changes when they renovate.

But because recreation facilities weren’t included then, there is no safe harbor. They must be accessible.

Pools, for example, must have two means of entry for disabled people. Lifts are the easiest solutions for small pools; larger pools can have sloped entries and grab-bar-equipped access routes called transfer walls.

Maher said his members haven’t seen heavy use of accessibility devices, but that probably will change as the boomer generation — more used to getting regular exercise and more used to getting what they want than earlier generations — increasingly experiences limits on mobility.

Steven Carlson, manager of Olympus Hills Lanes in Salt Lake City, said his bowling alley, built in 1964, has been ADA-compliant for 14 years after retrofits to the building entry and bowling lanes with access ramps. While the coffee shop isn’t accessible, Carlson said, employees bring food to anyone who orders it lane-side, an acceptable ADA alternative.

Other bowling businesses in the valley, he said, were built to be accessible from the get-go.

That is now required of all new construction. Mary Ann Cowen, Salt Lake County’s ADA compliance officer, said the first county building to be constructed under the new rules is the $42.8 million District Attorney’s Office on State Street.

Johnson said there will be transfer chairs to help disabled people get into the hot pools at county swim facilities, though they had to fill a wading pool at the Marv Jensen pool in South Jordan with cement because there was no way to make it accessible.

Two county golf courses, Mick Riley and Meadowbrook, make wheelchairs available, Johnson said.

The county has rebuilt park playgrounds with ramps and fibar, the engineered wood chips that people who use wheelchairs can navigate. Draper City went even further: The Draper Riverton Rotary Club raised funds to build Jordan River Rotary Park to exceed ADA requirements for its playground, said Brad Jensen, Draper’s parks and trails manager.
 
Greetings,

Yea I just read about this today. I think it's nuts requiring this and not grandfathering old pools. Talk about government over reach.

BS
 
BSSTG said:
Greetings,Yea I just read about this today. I think it's nuts requiring this and not grandfathering old pools. Talk about government over reach.

BS
Actually, that’s been the law of the land for more than 20 years. They have had a plenty of notice.
 
mark handler said:
CBS 5 spoke with the city of Phoenix's Parks and Recreation Department, which operates 28 aquatic centers. They believe they're in compliance because they have a plan in place to install the lifts over the next five years.
The law requires everyplace to have them by March 15, how was having a plan to install them over the next five years acceptable? If that works then every hotel and other business where they are required would use the same loophole.
 
mark handler said:
Actually, that’s been the law of the land for more than 20 years. They have had a plenty of notice.
So if it has been the law of the land for more than 20 years what is the significance of March 15, 2012?
 
mark handler said:
Actually, that’s been the law of the land for more than 20 years. They have had a plenty of notice.
Not Hardly!

To quote your own post:

"Actually, that’s been the law of the land for more than 20 years. But in 2010, the U.S. Department of Justice adopted sweeping new design standards to supplant those enacted in 1991, with compliance expected by March 15, 2012.

What’s new is a special focus on places for recreation — including all gyms, bowling alleys, boating docks, swimming pools, amusement parks, fitness rooms and golf courses, both full-size and miniature — which were not covered in the original law."

It's a ridiculous requirement!

Bill
 
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Pool owners should close their pools and post a sign indicating the reason for closed pools is over-reaching regs of DOJ and disabled who cannot accept the fact they are disabled and not able to do everything able-bodied people can.
 
Msradell said:
... how was having a plan to install them over the next five years acceptable....
If is not readily achievable to immediately provide an accessible means of entry and exit at every pool, then the entity must remove barriers to the extent that it is readily achievable to do so. It is important to note that the barrier removal obligation is a continuing one, and it is expected that a business will take steps to improve accessibility over time.
 
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Just a thought.......We all hear about market driven changes. In other words, "let the public decide if they want electric cars instead of the gov't subsidizing them with our tax dollars". So can the market drive accessibility changes? There is no doubt that there is going to be a significant increase in those requiring accessible facilities in the near future. That being the case, would it maybe be smart business to offer accessible facilities to that segment of the population. If a particular hotel chain does not have accessible pools and another does could the market determine which would be more successful? Or is it the thoought that if left to our own devices we would completely ignore those needs?
 
fatboy said:
Flippen BS.....removable/portable lifts should be sufficient. JMHO
People rent them for CO. Then they disappear.

Same as ramps in nightclubs.
 
KZQuixote said:
Not Hardly! To quote your own post: "Actually, that’s been the law of the land for more than 20 years. But in 2010, the U.S. Department of Justice adopted sweeping new design standards to supplant those enacted in 1991, with compliance expected by March 15, 2012. What’s new is a special focus on places for recreation — including all gyms, bowling alleys, boating docks, swimming pools, amusement parks, fitness rooms and golf courses, both full-size and miniature — which were not covered in the original law." It's a ridiculous requirement! Bill
All of those operations were required to accommodate people with disabilities since 1991. The difference is that now there are specific guidelines for those industries.

I.e. they don't get to claim ignorance when they violate people's civil rights.

BTW, I didn't think Ted had a dog.

However, your Kaczynski impersonation is better than your Foghorn.
 
Sifu said:
Just a thought.......We all hear about market driven changes. In other words, "let the public decide if they want electric cars instead of the gov't subsidizing them with our tax dollars". So can the market drive accessibility changes? There is no doubt that there is going to be a significant increase in those requiring accessible facilities in the near future. That being the case, would it maybe be smart business to offer accessible facilities to that segment of the population. If a particular hotel chain does not have accessible pools and another does could the market determine which would be more successful? Or is it the thoought that if left to our own devices we would completely ignore those needs?
The market can drive accessibility changes. In places like California where market based solutions are available.

Where there are no financial disincentives for non-compliance, it's another story.

I wish people would get their premises and conclusions straight.

If you want big government, don't allow private law suits for damages.

If you want the free market, allow it.
 
Time for tort reform, especially in California regarding ADA compliance.
 
"People rent them for CO.

Then they disappear."

Then thats when the lawsuit should come into play, blatantly disregarding the law.
 
Sifu said:
Just a thought.......We all hear about market driven changes. In other words, "let the public decide
So, If someone decides to post a no blacks, no irish no jew sign, we should let the public decide...discrimination of anykind is wrong. ADA is a civil rights law.

You are discriminating againt our vets.

Are you advocating keeping someone that gave their limbs to defend your rights, cannot use the facilities?
 
fatboy said:
"People rent them for CO. Then they disappear." Then thats when the lawsuit should come into play, blatantly disregarding the law.
Anyone whose place of business requires navigating architectural barriers is blatantly disregarding the law - it's been around for 20 years.
 
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