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Private Pools & ADA

RJJ

RJJ

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Joined
Oct 17, 2009
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about 1' east of the white water
Here is an interesting issue. Does a Townhouse community, in need of bath rooms facilities for the pool area have to comply with A 117 when constructing new bath rooms? It appear that it could be consider a private pool and only available to thier owners and guests.
 
RJJ said:
Here is an interesting issue. Does a Townhouse community, in need of bath rooms facilities for the pool area have to comply with A 117 when constructing new bath rooms? It appear that it could be consider a private pool and only available to thier owners and guests.
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In Arizona, our state law dictates the requirements for pools and public pool facilities.

In the described type of community, this would be considered a "semi-public pool" and the bathrooms (if provided) would be required to meet A117.1.
 
RJJ said:
Here is an interesting issue. Does a Townhouse community, in need of bath rooms facilities for the pool area have to comply with A 117 when constructing new bath rooms? It appear that it could be consider a private pool and only available to thier owners and guests.
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IBC Chapter 11 does not specifically exempt community pools, and 1109.14.1 appears to require at least one recreational type facility be accessible.

in otherwords, and as everyone else has said. yes it does.
 
% % % %

RJJ,

I also agree with the other esteemed forum contributors.

Common areas must comply with A117!

% % % %
 
As relates to ADA and FHA a community center or pool open to all in a neighborhood does not qualify as a "Private Club".

Unless you can legally hang a "No Coloreds Allowed" sign, you have to remove barriers to the disabled.

From the ADA Title III Assistance manual

"III-1.6000 Private clubs. The obligations of title III do not apply to any "private club. " An entity is a private club for purposes of the ADA if it is a private club under title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, and national origin by public accommodations.

Courts have been most inclined to find private club status in cases where --

1) Members exercise a high degree of control over club operations.

2) The membership selection process is highly selective.

3) Substantial membership fees are charged.

4) The entity is operated on a nonprofit basis.

5) The club was not founded specifically to avoid compliance with Federal civil rights laws.

Facilities of a private club lose their exemption to the extent that they are made available for use by nonmembers as places of public accommodation.

ILLUSTRATION: A private country club that would be considered a "private club" for ADA purposes rents space to a private day care center that is also open to the children of nonmembers. Although the private club would maintain its exemption for its other operations, it would have title III obligations with respect to the operation of the day care center."
 
RJJ, it absolutely does. That's why the local townhouse project here scrapped the pool and clubhouse idea.
 
ADA definition

Public Use. Describes interior or exterior rooms or spaces that are made available to the general public. Public use may be provided at a building or facility that is privately or publicly owned

The invited guest would be the general public
 
rshuey: I don't disagree. I was handed a letter this morning on this subject. The attorney has reference title III. Their contention is that the pool is only used by guess and owners. Therefore private. Now I don't think this dog will hunt. So I am of the mind set for them to force the issue.

Now to boil it down to reality here is how it shakes out. They will build a new bath room? a given

They will need a sink! wall hung proposed

They will need a Toilet!

The need three grab bars real big expense.

They need a mirror

Big Issue 5 radius oh they are building a new building for this!

2 Parking space and sign.

two sections of side walk to be adjusted for access to the pool. 4" curb line to be corrected.
 
Couple more IBC notes

The IBC, unlike the ADA, does not exempt private clubs and religious organizations.

See also 1109.14 2009 IBC 2006 same

1109.14.4.5 does provide an exception for the raised diving board or platform not to be accessible.
 
Also, the ADA is not building code and building code is not ADA. ADA is civil rights. Building codes do not address civil rights. If accessibility is required by the building code, then it is required regardless of public or private.
 
Coug Dad! I have the same thoughts! But the questions seems to hold some water. MT invited guess is the public I would also agree.

ADA is a standard applied through certain sections of the IBC so in some aspects civil rights creeps in! Does it not!
 
RJJ said:
... ADA is a standard applied through certain sections of the IBC so in some aspects civil rights creeps in! Does it not!
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You're right, it does not.

Unless you think Section E109 means the ADA is "applied through ... sections of the IBC".
 
The townhouse buildings may be IRC code but the public use/common areas are IBC regulated

IBC 2009

Chapter 11 PUBLIC-USE AREAS. Interior or exterior rooms or spaces that are made available to the general public.
 
Once again some of you are off the mark, as it relates to the ADA rules.

Areas within multifamily residential facilities that qualify as places of public accommodation are covered by the ADA if use of the areas is not limited exclusively to owners, residents, and their guests.

ILLUSTRATION 1: A private residential apartment complex includes a swimming pool for use by apartment tenants and their guests.

The complex also sells pool "memberships" generally to the public. The pool and restrooms qualifies as a place of public accommodation.

ILLUSTRATION 2: A residential condominium association maintains a longstanding policy of restricting use of its party room and swimming pool to owners, residents, and their guests. Consistent with that policy, it refuses to rent the room to local businesses and community organizations as a meeting place for educational seminars.

The swimming pool, party room and restrooms are not a place of public accommodation.

ILLUSTRATION 3: A private residential apartment complex contains a rental office. The rental office and restrooms are a place of public accommodation.

Guests are NOT General Public according to the ADA.[/b]

On the other hand, the HUD Fair Housing Laws do apply, and The restrooms, swimming pool, under the Fair Housing Laws do need to be accessible.

You all, if giving advice, need to read the scoping document for ADA and The Fair Housing Act
 
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Any of the 3 paths you take ADA as public accomodation, FHA as a common area feature, or IBC Building code and the referenced A117.1 the pool and the bath house have to be accessible.

A bona fide private club may discriminate under the Title III Civil Rights Act and the included ADA but would still have to provide accessibility for new construction or alterations under the IBC unless there are state or local ammendments providing an exception.
 
mark handler said:
Once again some of you are off the mark, as it relates to the ADA rules.You all, if giving advice, need to read the scoping document for ADA and The Fair Housing Act
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I appreciate the information Mark, but I was not giving advice (felt included by the 'you all' statement), let alone on the ADA. I am simply not qualified. As you have stated before, we do not enforce the ADA, only the IBC (or other scoping mechanism) and the adopted standards, in my case ANSI A117.1-2003. Your quotations are quite helpful and insightful, and I respect your comments. To help me understand, does 1109.14 then not apply as this would not be a common/public recreation facility?
 
Frank said:
Any of the 3 paths you take ADA as public accomodation, FHA as a common area feature, or IBC Building code and the referenced A117.1 the pool and the bath house have to be accessible.A bona fide private club may discriminate under the Title III Civil Rights Act and the included ADA but would still have to provide accessibility for new construction or alterations under the IBC unless there are state or local ammendments providing an exception.
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That was my thinking. Start with your adopted codes, then go to FHA. Am I misunderstanding Mark though. It seems to me he is saying that IBC/ANSI would not require it, however FHA would. I might be confused here. Please help.
 
What Frank says, plus a good reminder from mark handler...multiple gotchas!
 
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