quasi public park occupancy

[archiboy]

Hi all,

Just found this resource -- and gotta say -- I'm thrilled to have found you all!

I'm designing a restaurant that has an adjacent parcel that the owner with (community participation) want to develop as a quasi public park for sport usage (bocce). I'm struggling with how to calculate the occupancy of that parcel relative to plumbing requirements. Does this fall under 15sf/person? If so, it's adding up to a lot more people than I can ever imagine using the facility. The parcels are anticipated to remain under private control so I don't think I can take the 'public exemption' route. Is there a part of code for outdoor space I'm overlooking?

TIA for any insight.

 

[fatboy]

Welcome to the forum!

In reply to your post, I really have no idea where you could throw this application into the OL Table. If I were you, I would be sitting down with the AHJ, ASAP, as no matter what you think, they have the final say. Talk to them, get their input, make your case, then go from there.

Again, welcome.

 

[globe trekker]

archiboy,

Welcome to the Building Code Forum!

I agree with "fatboy" in that these types of outdoor sporting venues are a little harder to

design for (think Tennis courts), and that you should make an appointment with the AHJ

to discuss the project.

QUESTION # 1: Don't the bocce courts / areas have spectators viewing as well?

Points to Consider:

(1) How many actual players will be on one court at any one time,

(2) How many actual spectators "could be" viewing the players at any one time,

(3) Will there be any type of seating for the spectators, or will it be standing only,

(4) Are you considering & designing for the ADA/ Accesibility requirements?

.

 

[cda]

Welcome also

Is this totally outside???

If totally outside the building code may not apply

Will see what others say

And if totally outside not a plumber so do not know how toilet requirements apply

 

[fatboy]

I would think that even with "sans building", you need to figure some sort of OL, and provide some RR facilities. But, on the other hand, why is this different from any other park If this is merely a common place like the BBQ grill provided in a park, is this a non-issue?

 

[cda]

I would think that even with "sans building", you need to figure some sort of OL, and provide some RR facilities. But, on the other hand, why is this different from any other park If this is merely a common place like the BBQ grill provided in a park, is this a non-issue?

unless you have to go to the bathroom and non provided????????

any other source that kind of says if you have a park or soccer field with no structures that you should provide so many toilets per whatever??

 

[fatboy]

I agree cda, but am troubled by a code requirement for it. We have many parks with no RR facilities. When we did a new Rec Center they always were trying to refer back to some sort of rec code. Tried a search, but quick peak showed no relevant results.

 

[steveray]

A-5.....

Stadiums, amusement parks, bleachers and grandstands for outdoor sporting events and activities

WC Men 1 per 75 for the first 1,500 and 1 per 120 for the remainder exceeding 1,500

WC Women 1 per 40 for the first 1,500 and 1 per 60 for the remainder exceeding 1,500

Lav Men1 pr 200

Lav Women1 per 150

—

DF 1 per 1,000

1 service sink

Depending on how you set it up.....low load for the fields....not alot of spectators you will probably get by with one each......

 

[mark handler]

A-5..... Stadiums, amusement parks, bleachers and grandstands for outdoor sporting events and activities

WC Men 1 per 75 for the first 1,500 and 1 per 120 for the remainder exceeding 1,500

WC Women 1 per 40 for the first 1,500 and 1 per 60 for the remainder exceeding 1,500

Lav Men1 pr 200

Lav Women1 per 150

—

DF 1 per 1,000

1 service sink

Depending on how you set it up.....low load for the fields....not alot of spectators you will probably get by with one each......

Is that based on the California plumbing code? California does not use the IPC. Nor do they use chapter 29 of the IBC.....

California is where the Poster is from....

 

[steveray]

Sorry Mark...did not see that......I am apparently useless in this conversation.....unless it falls outside of the Cali codes and the OP is just looking for some guidelines for reference purposes........

 

[fatboy]

That's great, how are you going to establish the OL to get to the fixture calc?

 

[mark handler]

Sorry Mark...did not see that......I am apparently useless in this conversation.....unless it falls outside of the Cali codes and the OP is just looking for some guidelines for reference purposes........

I would say it is not useless, BUT the CA Plumbing Code, does not have the "A-5" in it's TABLE 4-1 MINIMUM PLUMBING FACILITIES.

"Building categories" not shown in the Table shall be considered separately by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

A park does not, per the CA plumbing code, Require sanitary facilities.

There maybe a planning approval required, which the planning commission may require sanitary facilities, But the CPC does not require it.

 

[steveray]

That's great, how are you going to establish the OL to get to the fixture calc?

How many people are on a bocci court at a time? 4? theres the court.....Bench seats? 18"per I believe....and/or something reasonable for standing people....I would try not to beat them to death on fixtures....if it was a reasonable # I would buy it...egress would be another matter....

 

[Yikes]

The reason that parks have no associated restroom requirements is that there is no way to codify how the park gets used:

Is it a place where summer concerts are held, where everybody takes a bathroom break all at once? - or-

Is it a wilderness park, where 5 square miles are visited by 5 hikers at a trailhead? - or-

Is it a neighborhood "pocket park", used primarly by people within a couple blocks of their house, or where ANY bathrooms might cause security problems?

Best to leave it to the park manager to make their own determination.

 

[archiboy]

Thanks all for the thoughtful responses. Few items: 1) Yes this is in CA. 2) It's private property and we do plan to build some trellis with lighting for the courts -- therefore I believe building code will apply. I wish I could hang my hat on the A-5 standards posted by steveray. I could live with those. I like the idea of negotiating this per fatboy's recommendations. I believe that will be the best course of action, and to request any ruling in writing (if possible). To respond to other questions: Yes we are attempting to comply with ADA accessibility, but there are limitations related to compromises to the courts and play that will limit access to the actual courts. Typically a team will be made up of 8 to 10 players. So one court could have a load of up to 20 people. Normally there are few if any spectators.

 

[mark handler]

Talk w/the AHJ on the number of toilets req.

You will comply with the CBC reg Accessibility, not the ADA

 

[steveray]

Could the courts not have a removable panel, or something hinged as a way for wheelchair access? We did something similar with a Whirlyball court which is something like bumpercar/basketball/jai-lai all mixed together......

 

[mark handler]

Could the courts not have a removable panel, or something hinged as a way for wheelchair access? We did something similar with a Whirlyball court which is something like bumpercar/basketball/jai-lai all mixed together......

 

[archiboy]

Interesting solution. It does introduce several compromises that I don't believe will be acceptable to the local bocce purists. Court is a groomed surface -- typically oyster shell over gravel. The synthetic surface courts are not desirable. Typical courts are a concrete curb with the court grade about 6" below the adjacent surface with a wood bumper bolted to the concrete curb. A more likely solution would be a 6' ramp that could be removed during play.

 

[mark handler]

Removable ramp is a high liability issue.

Who places it? Who removes it? Is that person going to remain during the entire game? If not the wheelchair user is trapped on the court.

What happens if not properly placed?

I do not be live the insurance company will insure it?

 

[archiboy]

Answer:

2010 CA Plumbing Code - 412.1.1

...Community and/or municipal parks with a bleacher capacity not exceeding 500 shall be exempt... The AHJ is in agreement this will apply since the improvements will be on a unique lot and require a separate permit that does not include any 'buildings'

Thanks to all who weighed in.

 

[steveray]

Perfect...glad you found an answer!

 

[north star]

= = =

archiboy,

1st, ...Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !

2nd, ...Didn't you say that your particular park was a private one ?

Does that particular CBC code section apply to private parks ?

[ RE: Post # 15 above ].

= = =

 

[archiboy]

it's private property - but being planned as a facility open to the public. Which satisfied the AHJ. Yes I know, it's very confusing