Question for members about the purpose of this website

[texasbo]

I'm posting this topic in Commercial Building, because I think that's where it will get the most exposure, and because I think it's where the question is most relevant.

One of the most valuable uses I see for this forum is for non-code professionals to come here and seek code advice from code professionals. I don't think that's the only purpose of the forum by any means, but in my opinion, it's an important one. I know of two people that disagree.

Does anyone else think that we shouldn't give code advice/interpretations to those who are not as familiar with the codes as we are?

 

[jar546]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

It is my personal opinion that this is an open to the public forum that is for all people to share information.

We can share opinions with each other and if a non-professional (how do we know?) asks a question, all of us have the option of answering it or not. Chances are it will be answered.

I want to elevate the building and inspection industry to a profession and the more we share, the better off we will all be.

If someone has a sensitive issue, you can always PM or email the other person.

 

[cda]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

1. I also look for advice when I see a code section I have never delt with or it has been a long time since I have used it

2. You get what you paid for

I take advice and either accept it or check it a few more times before I enforce it or throw it away.

As stated many times it is hard to do code review alot of times with out being there and seeing the whole steak.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

Does anyone else think that we shouldn't give code advice/interpretations to those who are not as familiar with the codes as we are?

No

We do it every day in our jobs from the homeowner, to the DP who as little knowledge of certain codes to the DP who is very knowledgeable but has been asked to design something he/she feels uncomfortable with. The key is to try and give different options for them to choose to use.

agree with cda. You get what you pay for

 

[LGreene]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

I guess I would probably qualify as a "non-code-professional" in the eyes of the code professionals. I am a door hardware consultant, and my code knowledge is very focused on door-related issues. I'm a resource for my colleagues when it comes to code questions related to doors and hardware, and I often post about those issues on my blog.

I gather my information from reading the codes and commentaries, and submitting questions to the ICC and NFPA. I also ask "the experts" and sometimes that means posting my question on this board. The feedback I get from you all is extremely helpful to me, and in turn, I communicate it to the people in my industry. If I see a door-related question here, I add my 2 cents worth.

I don't see a lot of people posting on this board who have no knowledge of codes or who just post random silly questions that they could answer if they did a little reading. This board is a very valuable resource to me and I hope you don't decide to stop sharing with us NCPs.

 

[jar546]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

I guess I would probably qualify as a "non-code-professional" in the eyes of the code professionals. I am a door hardware consultant, and my code knowledge is very focused on door-related issues. I'm a resource for my colleagues when it comes to code questions related to doors and hardware, and I often post about those issues on my blog. I gather my information from reading the codes and commentaries, and submitting questions to the ICC and NFPA. I also ask "the experts" and sometimes that means posting my question on this board. The feedback I get from you all is extremely helpful to me, and in turn, I communicate it to the people in my industry. If I see a door-related question here, I add my 2 cents worth.

I don't see a lot of people posting on this board who have no knowledge of codes or who just post random silly questions that they could answer if they did a little reading. This board is a very valuable resource to me and I hope you don't decide to stop sharing with us NCPs.

And we certainly appreciate your input since you specialize in a very specific area and do your homework on your product. Insight from specialists such as yourself is invaluable to this board. You probably have more information on your specialty that we ever will.

 

[fatboy]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

I believe that this, like the previous forum before it's demise, this is the perfect place to ask questions, and post OPINIONS, for DP's, Non-DP's, Code Professionals, whomever. Whatever someone takes away from this forum, it is still only that, OPINIONS. Most of the posters here are, typically, not designing. If you don't want the opinions of anyone that happens to be on the site, then don't post the question. And if you are reading the posts, don't get all worked up about your turf. JMHO!

 

[Plans Approver]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

The ICC Commentaries and interpretations are advisory. In fact, interpretations have been changed to committee opinions. When I call staff at our state board with questions, they always preface their answers with "this is my opinion".

While we may have more respect for those opinions, they are still opinions. This board is full of commentary, interpretations, and opinions. All with the same weight as those of the others. Take them, leave them, laugh at them, cry over them.

The only things that count are the codes as ill-written as they may be. The only time your comments, interpretations, and opinions count is in your jurisdiction. If they are reasonable, clear and written, you have should have no problems despite what you or anyone else writes or reads anonymously on a bulletin board.

 

[JBI]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

All of the above... and more.

For those of us who work with the codes everyday, it's a great mental exercise. Be it by answering a challenging question posted by one of 'us', or digging in to help a newcomer facing a challenge.

For DPs it can be a valuable resource for code specific questions, as well as an opportunity to share your expertise, or offer a different perspective.

For builders/contractors it offers a place to come to help understand a particular requirement or provision that you are unfamiliar with or possibly share your specific knowledge in your trade, or with a specialized product.

For John Q. Public it is usually a way to find your local Code Official, not directly necessarily, but rather it will often help a homeowner realize that the project they are asking about required a permit afterall. Sometimes, it will even help them realize that their local BO isn't such a jerk after all.

For many of us it is also a place to quote 'Monty Python', boast about your fishing prowess, or even argue about attic stairs. It's a place to share ideas, thoughts and yes, opinions.

The instructors that I have had during my initial training for my CEO Cert, as well as for my in-service training over the years were ALL very adamamnt about one thing in particular, that a Code Officials job must include public education and awareness of the Codes. That we need to share the information, not design for them because that IS a slippery slope that leads to a deep abyss, but guide them gently and safely.

I have had untrained people take the Building Code home and come back in less than a week with a ramp plan that was as good as any I've seen (and better than most). And I've had licensed DPs try and sell me snake oil in lieu of a proper fire seperation. There is difference between knowledge and wisdom.

 

[texasbo]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

Very well said, JD.

All of the above... and more. For those of us who work with the codes everyday, it's a great mental exercise. Be it by answering a challenging question posted by one of 'us', or digging in to help a newcomer facing a challenge.

For DPs it can be a valuable resource for code specific questions, as well as an opportunity to share your expertise, or offer a different perspective.

For builders/contractors it offers a place to come to help understand a particular requirement or provision that you are unfamiliar with or possibly share your specific knowledge in your trade, or with a specialized product.

For John Q. Public it is usually a way to find your local Code Official, not directly necessarily, but rather it will often help a homeowner realize that the project they are asking about required a permit afterall. Sometimes, it will even help them realize that their local BO isn't such a jerk after all.

For many of us it is also a place to quote 'Monty Python', boast about your fishing prowess, or even argue about attic stairs. It's a place to share ideas, thoughts and yes, opinions.

The instructors that I have had during my initial training for my CEO Cert, as well as for my in-service training over the years were ALL very adamamnt about one thing in particular, that a Code Officials job must include public education and awareness of the Codes. That we need to share the information, not design for them because that IS a slippery slope that leads to a deep abyss, but guide them gently and safely.

I have had untrained people take the Building Code home and come back in less than a week with a ramp plan that was as good as any I've seen (and better than most). And I've had licensed DPs try and sell me snake oil in lieu of a proper fire seperation. There is difference between knowledge and wisdom.

 

[chris kennedy]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

I'm just here for the pictures.

For those of us who work with the codes everyday, it's a great mental exercise.

This is the main reason I'm here. Also pick up a lot of great info that helps me understand the Florida Building Code, something I recently started reading. As far as giving advice to non-professionals, as stated above, how do we know who is lurking as a guest?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

I'll add an "Amen" to John's statement.

We have the most diverse group of knowledgeable people who work with building codes; who bring their experience, and expertise together in one forum. This is a place where; building officials, inspectors, fire marshals, fire inspectors, plan reviewers, architects, engineers, builders, contractors, tradesmen, manufacturing representatives, related organization representatives, home owners and kibitzers; can meet and share their knowlege, expertise, experience; and yes, their hopes, dreams, humor, frustrations, and personal interests.

They can post their opinion and share their knowledge and information on this forum with anonimity or proclaim their representation proudly. It's what makes us special and unique.

Most importantly, they are all Equal. This is what makes this forum unique, important, and valuable.

Uncle Bob

 

[kilitact]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

JD wrote;

All of the above... and more. For those of us who work with the codes everyday, it's a great mental exercise. Be it by answering a challenging question posted by one of 'us', or digging in to help a newcomer facing a challenge.

For DPs it can be a valuable resource for code specific questions, as well as an opportunity to share your expertise, or offer a different perspective.

For builders/contractors it offers a place to come to help understand a particular requirement or provision that you are unfamiliar with or possibly share your specific knowledge in your trade, or with a specialized product.

For John Q. Public it is usually a way to find your local Code Official, not directly necessarily, but rather it will often help a homeowner realize that the project they are asking about required a permit afterall. Sometimes, it will even help them realize that their local BO isn't such a jerk after all.

For many of us it is also a place to quote 'Monty Python', boast about your fishing prowess, or even argue about attic stairs. It's a place to share ideas, thoughts and yes, opinions.

The instructors that I have had during my initial training for my CEO Cert, as well as for my in-service training over the years were ALL very adamamnt about one thing in particular, that a Code Officials job must include public education and awareness of the Codes. That we need to share the information, not design for them because that IS a slippery slope that leads to a deep abyss, but guide them gently and safely.

I have had untrained people take the Building Code home and come back in less than a week with a ramp plan that was as good as any I've seen (and better than most). And I've had licensed DPs try and sell me snake oil in lieu of a proper fire seperation. There is difference between knowledge and wisdom.

I would agree with texasbo, well put JD, the slippery slope can be a tightrope walking SOB sometimes, because we all want to help.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

I'm posting this topic in Commercial Building, because I think that's where it will get the most exposure, and because I think it's where the question is most relevant.One of the most valuable uses I see for this forum is for non-code professionals to come here and seek code advice from code professionals. I don't think that's the only purpose of the forum by any means, but in my opinion, it's an important one. I know of two people that disagree.

Does anyone else think that we shouldn't give code advice/interpretations to those who are not as familiar with the codes as we are?

Of course I agree that people ought to give code advice.

However, they ought to strive to provide advice appropriate to the person asking the question.

In other words, we all ought to avoid encouraging incompetence.

 

[texasbo]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

However, they ought to strive to provide advice appropriate to the person asking the question.

I prefer make the answer appropriate to the question, rather than the person asking it, especially on an internet forum where I really don't know who's asking it.

In other words, we all ought to avoid encouraging incompetence.

I think by providing thoughtful answers to the questions we are encouraging competence.

 

[rktect 1]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

The OP's statement sounds exactly the way in which you can have a discussion with an engineer. Ask them a question and the first thing they want to know is your qualifications/background for having the discussion. Upon learning that you are not as qualified as the engineer you asked your question, the response will be that you need to learn it first, then come back so you can speak with him. Of course at this point you would be more qualified than he is and you probably should not give him any advice on what it is you spent time learning for he does not have the qualifications for the discussion.

I think people should ask questions and if you have an answer, provide it instead of determining if you are higher up on the totem pole.

 

[SCBO1]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

This board is a valuble tool that I use every day while doing my duties as a building offical. I don't have all the answers and don't claim that I do, but the board's post or questions make me crack open the books and test my brain for what knowledge I have accumulated.

Thank's to the moderators time and to all that make this the best board it can be.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

However, they ought to strive to provide advice appropriate to the person asking the question.

I prefer make the answer appropriate to the question, rather than the person asking it, especially on an internet forum where I really don't know who's asking it.

In other words, we all ought to avoid encouraging incompetence.

I think by providing thoughtful answers to the questions we are encouraging competence.[/quote:2w6yuv9l]

Give it the bigtime BO test, "would I say that if a person I didn't know called me at my office and asked it?"

 

[texasbo]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

However, they ought to strive to provide advice appropriate to the person asking the question.

I prefer make the answer appropriate to the question, rather than the person asking it, especially on an internet forum where I really don't know who's asking it.

In other words, we all ought to avoid encouraging incompetence.

I think by providing thoughtful answers to the questions we are encouraging competence.

Give it the bigtime BO test, "would I say that if a person I didn't know called me at my office and asked it?"[/quote:3vtrmcbr]

The answer would be exactly the same.

Seriously, Brudgers, I'm not trying to be difficult here, but I am mystefied where the reluctance to help educate people about the code comes from. I don't care if it's an architect, engineer, citizen, or anyone else; you are not designing anything by giving someone your opinion about what the code says or how you would interpret it.

I have seen code professionals refuse to help people with the code for a lot of reasons; they're on a power trip, to protect their turf, to mask their weakness in the code, or out of pure laziness. Almost every time, the excuse is one of the following: "I'm not going to design it for you", "You make the big bucks, figure it out yourself", or "I'm not going to take on that liability". Every one of those excuses is chickensh_t.

I'm in no way saying you are guilty of any of these things, but for some reason, you don't seem feel comfortable helping people (or at least people that you don't deem worthy) understand the code.

Fortunately, the overwhelming majority who have responded to my query have expressed a willingness to help someone with a question (or have thanked us for being willing to help), and they certainly don't subscribe to the notion that providing code advice/interpretation constitutes design.

 

[RJJ]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

Wow! This thread has taken off since I first viewed it. I agree that JD had a fine answer. I am glad that Texasbo raised such a question, as well.

I most often read this site just like the old BB, in it's day, before I even read the news paper. For the most part some of the responses are belly busters. ROFL quite a funny bunch!

However, on the flip side, it amazes me to no end, that such a diverse group of individuals exists across our great country. Willing to help, challenge one who is wrong and support someone who has interpreted the code correctly. Do we all agree all the time. Certainly not. Do we argue at times? Yes. But at the end of the day I see us supporting each other, improving each other.

Yesterday, reading one of the threads on electric, dcinspector, who I believe is under cover with a new name, once called HUB, raised a question which forced me to leave my comfortable position and go out to my truck an grab my Nec code book. I learned something as soon as I read the section. That is part of what we are about. Teaching each other.

Further, I have never seen any homeowner given anything short of good info. Good direction. Have we always a greed. NO! But for the most part they have been directed to the local ahj and to seek the help of a professional. This is all good.

 

[jar546]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

If Brudgers would make use of his architectural knowledge as much as he has been making use of his philosphy degree we would all be learning something code related.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

If Brudgers would make use of his architectural knowledge as much as he has been making use of his philosphy degree we would all be learning something code related.

There are times when technical advice is called for.

There are times when a technical answer is inappropriate.

The OP's original question in the thread about fire separation for E occupancy , is in my opinion, one that should not be answered technically for ethical reasons.

Go back and read it.

Do three minutes worth of code analysis.

It wasn't Joe homeowner and a deck.

It was two E occupancy buildings one of which apparently required type II construction.

It's a case where the only good advice is the procedural - "stop and get an expert".

That's not a philosophical answer, it's a professional one.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

The answer would be exactly the same.

Seriously, Brudgers, I'm not trying to be difficult here, but I am mystefied where the reluctance to help educate people about the code comes from. I don't care if it's an architect, engineer, citizen, or anyone else; you are not designing anything by giving someone your opinion about what the code says or how you would interpret it.

I have seen code professionals refuse to help people with the code for a lot of reasons; they're on a power trip, to protect their turf, to mask their weakness in the code, or out of pure laziness. Almost every time, the excuse is one of the following: "I'm not going to design it for you", "You make the big bucks, figure it out yourself", or "I'm not going to take on that liability". Every one of those excuses is chickensh_t.

I'm in no way saying you are guilty of any of these things, but for some reason, you don't seem feel comfortable helping people (or at least people that you don't deem worthy) understand the code.

Fortunately, the overwhelming majority who have responded to my query have expressed a willingness to help someone with a question (or have thanked us for being willing to help), and they certainly don't subscribe to the notion that providing code advice/interpretation constitutes design.

Joe Homeowner bulding a deck is one thing.

Joe Homeowner designing an educational campus without the benefit of an architect is another.

And a Design Professional designing an educational campus is a third.

In the first and third cases technical advice is appropriate.

In the second, it's not when there is ample evidence the person doesn't know what they are doing...such as not being able to read a table.

We all start somewhere, but designing an educational campus is not appropriate for one's first rodeo.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: Question for members about the purpose of this website

Joe Homeowner bulding a deck is one thing.

Joe Homeowner designing an educational campus without the benefit of an architect is another.

And a Design Professional designing an educational campus is a third.

In the first and third cases technical advice is appropriate.

In the second, it's not when there is ample evidence the person doesn't know what they are doing...such as not being able to read a table.

We all start somewhere, but designing an educational campus is not appropriate for one's first rodeo.

Brudgers,

There are ways to give the advice they need and do it in a nice way. I have given technical advice before to home owners. It isn't always easy. Of course, if a home owner or a non-licensed person is attempting to do something that requires a design professional like the Joe Homeowner designing an educational campus, will need to be curbed in the right direction. Sometimes it is - "No, you can't do that. You need an architect or engineer." Of course, I would ask which state they are in (for example) if needed and then research the law and explain it to them. There are often publications made to ease that process by the boards.

There are cases where the person is simply way over their head and suggest that they get a competent designer such as a competent building designer, architect or engineer. It depends on what they are doing.

We should aspire to give the best and most appropriate and helpful advice. Sometimes it isn't clarifying the technical but getting them on the legal and proper direction. I may offer to design the work if it is legal for me to design it. I've got heat from that from time to time. I haven't gone to that degree, here. Then I haven't seen that many home owners here. Not yet, at least.