Questions about IBC vs. IRC

[tmmaloney1]

Hello all, this is my first post here. I have a couple questions, mainly one, that I've tried to answer myself, but I wanted to put it out there for discussion. I'm a licensed Construction Supervisor in Massachusetts, and I work mainly in the residential field, 1 and 2 family dwellings. I've been licensed for over 10 years, so I'm not brand new to this, and I'm somewhat familiar with the 2009 IRC. However, I've never looked at the IBC, IEBC. Some subjects in this may be better suited for the IRC threads, I'm sorry for that.

Here's the story that the question/s relate to, any thoughts are welcome: I was asked to secure permit, and structurally repair 3 stacked porches on a 3-unit condo building, that contains 3 one bedroom units with 3 residents total in building. I went to pull the permit, and the inspector told me that anything over 2 units needs a structural engineer with a P.E. (or licensed design professional). That was not a big deal to me, but the customers obviously didn't want to spend the $1,500 that the P.E. charged. I insisted we hire the engineer, just for my own liability, peace of mind.

So the question or questions I have are:

Do 3 or more units of any kind require a P.E. or Architect. Please assume that the structure is less than 35,000 cubic feet of enclosed space, because that's what the Massachusetts construction supervisors license lists as a cutoff point for the license.

My license is Unrestricted, and says right on the back "Buildings of any use group which contain less that 35,000 cubic feet of enclosed space"

To me this should mean I don't need a P.E. I'm curious if I was had by the inspector.

Also, do I use the IRC or IBC (or IEBC) for this? Or both? I've read so many conflicting things, and I don't even own an IBC book because I use the IRC mainly. Massachusetts has it's own code book to be used with the IRC, "The Massachusetts book of Amendments to the IRC". I don't know how other states work.

I'll throw in some other random questions, please feel free to discuss any of the subjects listed, bring up other topics, or just ignore the questions. I try to do my own research, and I hope no one thinks I'm using the forum because I'm too lazy to research myself. Truth is I can't afford to buy all the books.

Is it true that we're currently using the 2009 code books, and this will change in 2015? (An inspector told me this)

On a 3 or more unit building, can I be fined for not having the IBC on site? (Another quote from an inspector) Just looking for a brief explanation of what books I need and when.

An inspector handed me a photocopied booklet from "The American Wood Council" book of design recommendations, and told me I had to follow that book when building a deck. Is this just his crazy idea? Or does the IRC or IBC or IEBC actually point to the American Wood Council as a guide, and why is a book of recommendations from a group other than the ICC mandatory? In that town, to build a deck on an existing house, he requires you to anchor the new deck joists to the interior joists, using brackets and a long threaded rod. If there is a finished ceiling in the way of accessing the interior joists then he tells you to rip it down. I know I can get an engineer to override him but don't think this should be necessary, and it drives the price up that much more. Who wants to pay for an engineer to build a 4' by 5' platform for a set of stairs.

Thanks to anyone for reading all of that if you're still with me, you must have patience. I'll keep my future posts more brief, and I'll spend more time reading old threads to answer my questions. I know the drill, please don't lecture me.

 

[cda]

Welcome

sounds like that ahj requiers a PE for the work you are trying to do. Now is he the only inspector for that ahj?? if not he should have a big boss you can ask the question to.

"""

On a 3 or more unit building, can I be fined for not having the IBC on site? (Another quote from an inspector) Just looking for a brief explanation of what books I need and when. """"

That is an interesting one, almost same reply may be for that ahj, ask the boss

''''''An inspector handed me a photocopied booklet from "The American Wood Council" book of design recommendations"""""

if they require you to follow it, they normally have to adopt it to enforce it. besides the "I-Codes" there are alot of referenced standards in the ICodes to follow.

ASK away, most of the time you will get an answer

Does this city have a web site??? If so sometimes the codes and standards that have been adopted are on it.

 

[cda]

TMM

check these::

http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dps/inf/780cmr/780-8th-51.pdf

http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dps/inf/780cmr/780-8th-51.pdf

 

[cda]

"""""""""""On a 3 or more unit building, can I be fined for not having the IBC on site? (Another quote from an inspector)""""""""

if so someone is selling a lot of books!!!!

Have you asked other contractors some of these questions to see what they say????

 

[ICE]

lecturelecturelecturelecturelecture you'll have to wait for the east coast crowd lecturelecturelecturelecturelecture

 

[RLGA]

The IRC is for 1- and 2-family dwellings and townhouses. Since this is a 3-story condominium, it falls under the IBC, and, thus, the IEBC for any repair or renovation work.

The State of Massachusetts, I'm sure, has established some minimum requirements for the licensing of design professionals, such as architects and engineers. Nonlicensed individuals may perform design work as authorized by these laws. Being a licensed construction supervisor does not mean you're a licensed architect or engineer, which probably does not give you the authority to design the project, unless the work is within the scope permitted for nonlicensed individuals.

 

[tmmaloney1]

I'm new, so what does surrounding a phrase with the word lecture mean? A notice of imminent reprimand? Thanks CDA for the link provided, is that from the Mass book of amendments to the IRC? I read a lot of that before, but it's a good refresher. The language seems to grant the local inspector great latitude to interpret vague statements within the code. CDA, those links answered all my questions. Do what the inspector says, or pay a P.E., and or lawyer, to avoid it if they're being unreasonable.

I had to put the old school wind-braces in a small single family home that had 1/2", 5 ply, plywood sheathing recently. The plywood was nailed with 8's, 6" on center, everywhere except for where it was nailed 3" on center at seams, and around windows. (Nails held flush to outer surface) Point being, for the house to blow over, the wind has to disintegrate most of the plywood, or shear off most of the nails. Then the wind braces will briefly slow down the destruction. If you sheath a structure with styrofoam I can see wind bracing, but not a small house with 1/2" 5-ply fir plywood. The kicker was OSB sheathing was not allowed in that town under any circumstance. In the past I've resorted to calling the manufacturer, who paid for engineering studies, in order to market the product for a purpose that a building inspector says it cannot be used. They then threaten the inspector, who typically has no engineering background, with legal action.

The point is, I'm sure an inspector can find a section somewhere that is vague enough to allow them to ask for just about anything. I don't need to read the code; I need an *** kissing lesson.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Truth is I can't afford to buy all the books.

You can read them here for free. So if you have a a way to access them in the field then you will always have a "copy" with you onsite.

Free Resources

2009 IRC R502.2 gives a prescriptive path for decks. However as pointed out above you are under the IBC for this project and I believe Section 1406.3 may come into play

1406.3 Balconies and similar projections.

Balconies and similar projections of combustible construction other than fire-retardant-treated wood shall be fire-resistance rated in accordance with Table 601 for floor construction or shall be of Type IV construction in accordance with Section 602.4. The aggregate length shall not exceed 50 percent of the buildings perimeter on each floor.

Exceptions:

1. On buildings of Type I and II construction, three stories or less above grade plane , fire-retardant-treated wood shall be permitted for balconies, porches, decks and exterior stairways not used as required exits.

2. Untreated wood is permitted for pickets and rails or similar guardrail devices that are limited to 42 inches (1067 mm) in height.

3. Balconies and similar projections on buildings of Type III, IV and V construction shall be permitted to be of Type V construction, and shall not be required to have a fire-resistance rating where sprinkler protection is extended to these areas.

4. Where sprinkler protection is extended to the balcony areas, the aggregate length of the balcony on each floor shall not be limited.

 

[ICE]

I'm new, so what does surrounding a phrase with the word lecture mean?............The point is, I'm sure an inspector can find a section somewhere that is vague enough to allow them to ask for just about anything. I don't need to read the code; I need an *** kissing lesson.

Are you absolutely sure that you're not an engineer masquerading as a contractor?

 

[cda]

I'm new, so what does surrounding a phrase with the word lecture mean? A notice of imminent reprimand? Thanks CDA for the link provided, is that from the Mass book of amendments to the IRC? I read a lot of that before, but it's a good refresher. The language seems to grant the local inspector great latitude to interpret vague statements within the code. CDA, those links answered all my questions. Do what the inspector says, or pay a P.E., and or lawyer, to avoid it if they're being unreasonable. I had to put the old school wind-braces in a small single family home that had 1/2", 5 ply, plywood sheathing recently. The plywood was nailed with 8's, 6" on center, everywhere except for where it was nailed 3" on center at seams, and around windows. (Nails held flush to outer surface) Point being, for the house to blow over, the wind has to disintegrate most of the plywood, or shear off most of the nails. Then the wind braces will briefly slow down the destruction. If you sheath a structure with styrofoam I can see wind bracing, but not a small house with 1/2" 5-ply fir plywood. The kicker was OSB sheathing was not allowed in that town under any circumstance. In the past I've resorted to calling the manufacturer, who paid for engineering studies, in order to market the product for a purpose that a building inspector says it cannot be used. They then threaten the inspector, who typically has no engineering background, with legal action.

The point is, I'm sure an inspector can find a section somewhere that is vague enough to allow them to ask for just about anything. I don't need to read the code; I need an *** kissing lesson.

No you need to know the code as it pertains to what you are doing

You need to know what codes and standards the ahj has adopted

You need to question off the wall requirements, unless you just want to possibly pay extra cost for the construction of the project

 

[JPohling]

I think the issue was it was 3 stories, not 3 units.

 

[RLGA]

I think the issue was it was 3 stories, not 3 units.

The IRC allows up to three stories. It is the number of units. A structure regulated under the IRC can be a two-family structure with each dwelling unit stacked one on top of the other, provided the overall structure does not exceed three stories. Or, it can be three or more townhouses, which, by IRC/IBC definition, are attached dwelling units where "each unit extends from the foundation to roof and with open space on at least two sides."

Thus, a three-story structure with three condominiums--one on each floor--is outside the scope of the IRC, and is required to be regulated by the IBC.

However, that still is not the reason why they asked for a structural engineer to design it. As stated in another thread, the Construction Supervisor License (CSL) does not permit the design of structures, just the supervision of individuals or themselves in the construction, reconstruction, alteration, or demolition of a structure.

 

[JPohling]

thats why I should stay in Cali