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R1 or R2

Mr. Inspector

Mr. Inspector

SAWHORSE
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
4,114
Location
Poconos/eastern PA
I am reviewing the apartment building in a tourist area. 5 apartments with 2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms and a full kitchen. They are calling it R2, which the IBC says it’s for occupants are primarily permanent in nature. They will be putting in Type B accessible units. On their response of asking to show how at least one mailbox complies with ICC A117.1 (accessibility) they said there will be no mailboxes because the units will be used for short-term occupancy.

Since they are short term shouldn’t they be R-1 where the IBC says the occupants are primarily transient in nature?
 
What do get to leave out if it is R2 v. R1? here in Mass all R use group except 1 or 2 family home have to be fire sprinklered.
 
They both need sprinklers but have different rules on alarms and different max. common path of travel distance roll in showers have different requirements.
 
If they are not going to give you a timeframe for stays and declaring R2 then I would put a stipulation on the CO that it can only be used as an R2 and must comply with the R2 time limitations.
 
I think the problem they're debating is, if it's R2, ALL ground level units in a non-elevator building must be Type B Accessible (ALL units in an elevator building) or if it's R1 at least ONE unit must be accessible (NOT Type A or B, but Accessible).
 
khsmith55 said:
I think the problem they're debating is, if it's R2, ALL ground level units in a non-elevator building must be Type B Accessible (ALL units in an elevator building) or if it's R1 at least ONE unit must be accessible (NOT Type A or B, but Accessible).
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I think the basis of the post is concerning R1 vs R2 and not accessibility. The OP is intelligently asking for mailbox compliance since this is declared an R2 which then allowed them to openly admit it is not an R2. Very well played Rick
 
The description of R-1 states that it contains sleeping units and says nothing about dwelling units. How would one choose to make the decision based on expected length of stay over making the decision based on the type of unit (sleeping vs. dwelling)?
 
It is an R-2. A VRBO is no different than a Timeshare Condo in its use and the length of stay.
2018 IBC
[A] DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.

[A] SLEEPING UNIT. A single unit that provides rooms or spaces for one or more persons, includes permanent provisions for sleeping and can include provisions for living, eating and either sanitation or kitchen facilities but not both. Such rooms and spaces that are also part of a dwelling unit are not sleeping units.


310.3 Residential Group R-2.
Residential Group R-2 occupancies containing sleeping units or more than two dwelling units where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature, including:

Apartment houses

Vacation timeshare properties
 
The IBC R1 used to be based solely on the transient nature, regardless of sleeping or dwelling units....Because the nonfamiliar environment is the added hazard....Not whether they can cook or not...

1688664036925.png
 
steveray said:

310.3 Residential Group R-2​

Residential Group R-2 occupancies containing sleeping units or more than two dwelling units where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature, including:

Yep...fixed the glitch in 2024 I believe (and added dwelling units to R1) and now/ again short term rentals will be a COU to R1 as was always intended with "transient"
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i wish dwelling units were added to R1 for 2018, the BCO is telling me that they are R2 because dwelling units are not under R1.
 
The BCO is right...on paper....By code...Just not by commentary or the "corrections" made in 2024...

The term Group R refers collectively to the four individual residential occupancy classifications: Groups R-1, R-2, R-3 and R-4. These classifications are differentiated in the code based on the following criteria:
  1. 1.Whether the occupants are transient or nontransient in nature.
  2. 2.The type and number of dwelling units or sleeping units contained in a single building.
  3. 3.The number of occupants in the facility.
❖ The key characteristic of Group R-1 occupancies that differentiates it from other Group R occupancies is that the occupants are considered transient in nature (i.e., those whose length of stay is not more than 30 days). There is an expectation that the occupants are not as familiar with the building as those residents in nontransient facilities such as apartment buildings (Group R-2) and single-family dwellings (Group R-3). If occupants are unfamiliar with their surroundings, they may not recognize potential hazards or be able to use the means of egress effectively.

The most common building types classified in Group R-1 are hotels and motels. Facilities classified as Group R-1 occupancies may include dwelling units, sleeping units or a combination of both. A standard guestroom, with its associated bathroom, is considered a sleeping unit. Some hotels offer a style of rooms that can include spaces similar to a living room and kitchenette. When a unit is not equipped with a kitchen with full cooking facilities (i.e., range), it does not meet the definition of a “dwelling unit” in Section 202. Where this occurs, such units are treated as sleeping units for the application of code provisions (see Commentary Figure 310.2). A recent trend in development is the construction of “extended-stay hotels”. While these units may have all of the characteristics of a typical dwelling unit (i.e., cooking, living, sleeping, eating, sanitation), the length of stay is still typically not more than 30 days. As such, these buildings would still be classified as Group R-1.
 
I talked to the BCO some more now he is leaning towards R1. The problem is the 2018 IBC says R1 are" sleeping units" and the definition is:
[A] SLEEPING UNIT. A single unit that provides rooms or
spaces for one or more persons, includes permanent provisions
for sleeping and can include provisions for living, eating
and either sanitation or kitchen facilities but not both.
Such rooms and spaces that are also part of a dwelling unit
are not sleeping units.

I thought "either sanitation or kitchen facilities but not both." meant they could not have both a bathroom and kitchen. But there is no definition of sanitation in the IBC. So what does sanitation mean?

IPC has a chapter on Sanitary Drainage but I don't think it means that.

merriam-webster says:

sanitation​

noun​

san·i·ta·tion ˌsa-nə-ˈtā-shən

1
: the act or process of making sanitary

2
: the promotion of hygiene and prevention of disease by maintenance of sanitary conditions (as by removal of sewage and trash)

So does it just mean if the unit has a kitchen it is not allowed to be clean?
 
Last edited:
The word hygiene mainly focuses on diseases and health, while sanitation focuses on the safe disposal of human waste, which could be human urine and feces.

san·i·ta·tion

NOUN
  1. conditions relating to public health, especially the provision of clean drinking water and adequate sewage disposal:
    "they could afford to erect new dwellings with a reasonable standard of construction and sanitation"
    synonyms:
    cleanliness · purity · sterility · disinfection · sanitariness · public health · environmental health · personal hygiene · personal cleanliness · sanitary measures

en.wikipedia.org

Sanitation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Rick,

IMPO, if it walks like a duck, ......, call it a duck...... they openly stated short term transient, log the note in the file with date and time.

Request they respond with a written clarification as to why they are not installing the mailboxes per the requirements stipulated in A117.1 for R-2 occupancies?

If they want the R-2 classification, then hold them to the letter on every item, mailbox included, cite the correction and request the prints be updated and resubmitted.

If they don't correct the drawings and specifications with the mailboxes in compliance, then cite it as the reason that the permit is not being issued, and let them figure it out. You could also ask for a written correction letter just on that item alone or any other you see questionable, and then hold them to it.

I would also send them a copy of the penalties for using a building outside the designated use group classification and suggest that they review the intended use group classification, per their intended use.

with inflation, this was 5-cents instead of 2 this morning.....
 
tbz said:
Rick,

IMPO, if it walks like a duck, ......, call it a duck...... they openly stated short term transient, log the note in the file with date and time.

Request they respond with a written clarification as to why they are not installing the mailboxes per the requirements stipulated in A117.1 for R-2 occupancies?

If they want the R-2 classification, then hold them to the letter on every item, mailbox included, cite the correction and request the prints be updated and resubmitted.

If they don't correct the drawings and specifications with the mailboxes in compliance, then cite it as the reason that the permit is not being issued, and let them figure it out. You could also ask for a written correction letter just on that item alone or any other you see questionable, and then hold them to it.

I would also send them a copy of the penalties for using a building outside the designated use group classification and suggest that they review the intended use group classification, per their intended use.

with inflation, this was 5-cents instead of 2 this morning.....
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Can't make them add mailboxes if not required by code. Code only requires an accessible mailbox if they are installing them.
We will probably go with R1. It's just that I already did 4 plan reviews on this project towards a R2 before they told me that they won't install mailboxes because they will be short term rentals. If they never told me this or if I have not asked about mailboxes I would not have never known.
 
mtlogcabin said:
The word hygiene mainly focuses on diseases and health, while sanitation focuses on the safe disposal of human waste, which could be human urine and feces.

san·i·ta·tion

NOUN
  1. conditions relating to public health, especially the provision of clean drinking water and adequate sewage disposal:
    "they could afford to erect new dwellings with a reasonable standard of construction and sanitation"
    synonyms:
    cleanliness · purity · sterility · disinfection · sanitariness · public health · environmental health · personal hygiene · personal cleanliness · sanitary measures

en.wikipedia.org

Sanitation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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Wow. I looked up sanitation in 10 dictionaries and none of them said that it meant a water closet or toilet room. Looks like the code wants us to guess what it means by not just calling it a water closet.
So if the water closet was in a separate room (bathroom) connected to the sleeping unit with a kitchen we could call it a R1?
I'm thinking maybe the code does not want the toilet and the kitchen in the same room in "sleeping units" but it's ok to have them in the same room in a "dwelling unit".
 
The IRC has a description of the sanitation requirements for a dwelling unit. The definitions for a dwelling unit are exactly the same in both codes.

SECTION R306
SANITATION

R306.1 Toilet facilities.
Every dwelling unit shall be provided with a water closet, lavatory, and a bathtub or shower.

R306.2 Kitchen.
Each dwelling unit shall be provided with a kitchen area and every kitchen area shall be provided with a sink.

R306.3 Sewage disposal.
All plumbing fixtures shall be connected to a sanitary sewer or to an approved private sewage disposal system.

R306.4 Water supply to fixtures.
All plumbing fixtures shall be connected to an approved water supply. Kitchen sinks, lavatories, bathtubs, showers, bidets, laundry tubs and washing machine outlets shall be provided with hot and cold water.
 
Never thought of looking in the IRC. But I am talking about a "sleeping unit" not a "dwelling unit".

So SANITATION means toilet faculties, kitchens, sewage disposal, and water supply to fixtures.

So you can't have any of these things, like a kitchen, if a sleeping unit if it has a kitchen, . Does not make sense to me.
 
mtlogcabin said:
[A] SLEEPING UNIT. A single unit that provides rooms or spaces for one or more persons, includes permanent provisions for sleeping and can include provisions for living, eating and either sanitation or kitchen facilities but not both. Such rooms and spaces that are also part of a dwelling unit are not sleeping units.
Click to expand...
You can have a kitchen or bathroom but not both in a sleeping unit.
 
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