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Rated wall between drive thru and convenience store?

BayPointArchitect

BayPointArchitect

Sawhorse
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
529
Location
Lincoln
A convenience store owner wanted a covered drive thru adjacent a pass thru window.

The drafter thought it would be clever to put in garage doors and enclose the drive through during hours when the business is closed.

With good reason (LSC 36.1.1), FM denied the permit unless the entire building and covered area are sprinkled AND a one-hour rated wall is installed - complete with fire-rated glass between the drive-thru and convenience store.

Given a fully sprinkled building and one-hour rated barrier, we are trying to re-design an "equivalent level of safety" to avoid the fire rated pass-thru window.

Question #1:

Provided that the garage doors are removed and the covered roof over the drive thru is supported by a wall with large openings, how much area of that exterior bearing wall would need to be "open" for this to be considered a non-hazardous area rather than an enclosed parking area?

Question #2:

Does the LSC also have provisions for non-separated and most-restrictive occupancies similar to the IBC?

Thanks
 
I guess

1 how many sq ft is the entire thing

2 what occupancy are you and the fm calling this

3 what section is the fm using to require sprinklers???

4 Why is it considered parking?? It is a covered drive thru

5 totaly new building or add on?

6 what section of code is fm using to require the rated wall??
 
cda said:
how many sq ft is the entire thing
Click to expand...
2,700 S.F. for the entire building area comprised of 1,400 S.F. convenience store (Class "C" Mercantile) and a 1,300 S.F. covered drive through area ("parking area" according to the local State Fire Marshal).

cda said:
what occupancy are you and the fm calling this
Click to expand...
According to the IBC, I would like to call the entire building 2,700 S.F. of S1 occupancy (most restrictive of the two occupancies). But the State Fire Marshal is calling this Mercantile which needs a 2 hour separation by all parking areas per Life Safety Code 36.1.2.2.

cda said:
what section is the fm using to require sprinklers???
Click to expand...
The sprinklers are not necessarily required but the two-hour rated separation may be reduced to only one-hour rated wall if the entire building (including the covered area) is sprinkled. The building owner has opted to install the sprinklers to obtain a 25% discount on his insurance.

cda said:
Why is it considered parking?? It is a covered drive thru
Click to expand...
I would agree with the Fire Marshal that if the owner insisted on garage doors and windows for the drive thru, then it would need to be treated like an enclosed parking garage. After I was invited into the game, I removed the garage doors and windows and now I am trying to make this structure as open as possible to avoid the $7,000 worth of fire-rated glass.

cda said:
totaly new building or add on?
Click to expand...
New building under construction. Currently the foundation is complete and the fire sprinkler riser installed.

cda said:
what section of code is fm using to require the rated wall??
Click to expand...
Again, LSC 36.1.2.2 which reads as follows:

Combined Mercantile Occupancies and Parking Structures.

The fire barrier separating parking structures from a building classified as a mercantile occupancy shall be

a fire barrier having a minimum 2-hour fire resistance rating.

Openings in the fire barrier shall not be required to be protected with fire

protection–rated opening protectives in enclosed parking structures that are protected throughout by an approved,

supervised automatic sprinkler system in accordance with 9.7.1.1(1), or in open parking structures, provided that all of

the following conditions are met:

(1) The openings do not exceed 25 percent of the area of the fire barrier in which they are located.

(2) The openings are used as a public entrance and for associated sidelight functions.

(3) The building containing the mercantile occupancy is protected throughout by an approved, supervised automatic

sprinkler system in accordance with 9.7.1.1(1).

(4) Means are provided to prevent spilled fuel from accumulating adjacent to the openings and entering the building.

(5) Physical means are provided to prevent vehicles from being parked or driven within 10 ft of the

openings. [how does this work for a drive thru window? = it doesn't]

(6) The openings are protected as a smoke partition in accordance with Section 8.4, with no minimum fire protection

rating required.
 
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Interesting

How can someone label an area or assume what it may be used for, if the owner/ designer labels it for actual use??

The whole thing is a M!!!!

Sorry not 101 proficent
 
How about a fire rated door or similar, for the opening with detection release???
 
There's more to it than simply being able to drive a car into a building.

There must be plenty of enclosed parking garages in that FM's jurisdiction.

What about the other requirements of an enclosed parking garage such as ventilation etc. ?

Install a hose bibb and call it a car wash.

I guess you're lucky that the FM didn't call it a paint booth.

Wait a minute....I reread post #3 and see that the drive through area is 1300 sq ft.....that's enough covered space for eight cars.....the FM might be on to something here.

2,700 S.F. for the entire building area comprised of 1,400 S.F. convenience store (Class "C" Mercantile) and a 1,300 S.F. covered drive through area ("parking area" according to the local State Fire Marshal).
Click to expand...
 
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Wait a minute....I reread post #3 and see that the drive through area is 1300 sq ft.....that's enough covered space for eight cars.....the FM might be on to something here.

Eight cars no waiting, once again how can't he fm assume what the area will be used for
 
cda said:
How about a fire rated door or similar, for the opening with detection release???
Click to expand...
Drive up window? A question I have had about roll-up/bang down fire doors is the speed and velocity they fall at. I think some of them are based upon the French Guiloteens (sp?)
 
I know this maybe a 101 issue but looking at if from an IBC side, It seems to be no different than a drive up window at a fast food restaurant or service station with a convenience store; both of which have been “interpreted” by the ICC as not needing fire separation.

My question is: Why is the “porte-cochere” so large?
 
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I believe my first approach should be to minimize the likelihood that there will be any vehicles parked (and bursting into flames) within the porte-cochere (a.k.a. "open-air drive thru"). Therefore, there will be no garage doors and no windows within the outermost exterior wall that supports the 24 ft. long overhang. And within that wall that divides the convenience store and open-air drive-thru there are several windows typical of any retail space in addition to an automatic sliding door and sliding pass-thru window. The Fire Marshal is currently allowing glass within that wall - provided that it is the fire-rated glass. Although the building owner is ready to pay $7,000 for glass, there must be some effort to convert the "parking area" to an "open-air drive-thru".

Again, my question is how would I best re-design this scenario to eliminate the fire-rated separation wall between the vehicles and the liquor store/convenience store?
 
The drive through is not a "parking structure" as defined in NFPA 101 just because it has a door to secure it after hours. The FM should educate himself and quit wasting people's money.
 
Go with original design and Call it all "M" and go to board of appeals

You are already sprinkling it

Have FM prove up code sections
 
I do not believe that there is a board of appeals when dealing with the State Fire Marshal. His judgement is final.As for the code sections related to his comments, those are also included among the code review comments.See attachment.As you know, the IBC considers Mercantile (M) occupancies equal to motor vehicle Storage (S-1) and therefore no separation required per IBC Table 508.4.But the Life Safety Code is very clear in that Mercantile needs to be separated from Parking.My only hope is to either:Avoid the label, "parking structure"orAppeal for some practical consideration for "most restrictive and non-separated".It would be irrelevant if the entire use is considered "S" or "M" occupancy. Either way, no separation would be required.

View attachment 592

View attachment 592

/monthly_2012_06/Comments.jpg.130f6efb762a0a504b47b55ba9cfbf72.jpg
 
+ + + + + + + +

FWIW, I would think that this application is more of a temp.

porte cochere as well.

BayPointeArchitect,

Can this porte cochere be sprinkled and be compliant with

the state FM ?

+ + + + + + + +
 
north star said:
Can this porte cochere be sprinkled and be compliant with

the state FM ?

Click to expand...
Yes.

1) The entire attic area will be heated and insulated.

2) The convenience store will be fully sprinkled NFPA 13

3) The drive thru will be fully sprinkled NFPA 13 (wet system made possible by heated attic area above)

Never-the-less, the Fire Marshal (in accordance with LSC) requires a rated wall between the "parking area" and "convenience store".
 
sorry two last ones what edition of 101????

and what state is this in?? beside confusion oh nebraska

are they still under the 2000 edition of 101??????????
 
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four item # 4

7.2.1.1.3 Occupied Building.

7.2.1.1.3.1 For the purposes of Section 7.2, a building shall be considered to be occupied at any time it meets any of the following criteria:

(1)It is open for general occupancy.

(2)It is open to the public.

(3)It is occupied by more than 10 persons.

the what ever cannot have an occupant load of over 10!!!
 
Coug Dad said:
The drive through is not a "parking structure" as defined in NFPA 101 just because it has a door to secure it after hours. The FM should educate himself and quit wasting people's money.
Click to expand...
I would tend to agree with you, except for the part when it would have been completely enclosed.

At this point, I would check and see if the FM has issued any clarification statements or amended definitions in any way that might be effecting this project.

Perhaps there is a way to disconnect the porte cochere from the building, similar to a gas station canopy that extends over the roof of the convenience store.
 
Personally, I think this is an example of regulation leaving its senses.

Do they really think cars will be parked there during closed hours?

Do they require shopping malls to classify the mall portion as Group S-2 parking garages just because on occasion new car models are displayed?
 
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