Francis Vineyard
Registered User
R301.1.3 When it comes to needing a RDP, what are the limitations if any can or cannot an architect or an engineer seal be accepted? For example brace walls for an elevated sunroom on a deck.
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RDP Disciplines
- Thread starter Francis Vineyard
- Start date
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Codes of Virginia
§ 54.1-402. Further exemptions from license requirements for architects, professional engineers, and land surveyors.
A. No license as an architect or professional engineer shall be required pursuant to § 54.1-406 for persons who prepare plans, specifications, documents and designs for the following, provided any such plans, specifications, documents or designs bear the name and address of the author and his occupation:
1. Single- and two-family homes, townhouses and multifamily dwellings, excluding electrical and mechanical systems, not exceeding three stories; or .............
See the link for more
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC54010000004000000000000
§ 54.1-402. Further exemptions from license requirements for architects, professional engineers, and land surveyors.
A. No license as an architect or professional engineer shall be required pursuant to § 54.1-406 for persons who prepare plans, specifications, documents and designs for the following, provided any such plans, specifications, documents or designs bear the name and address of the author and his occupation:
1. Single- and two-family homes, townhouses and multifamily dwellings, excluding electrical and mechanical systems, not exceeding three stories; or .............
See the link for more
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC54010000004000000000000
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
mark h thanks for the quick response but I believe that VAC section is the Related Laws Package that refers to when A/E design must be implemented and when construction can use the prescribed methods. However when construction falls outside the prescriptive the code invites the following examples of my concern;
109.3 Engineering details. When determined necessary by the building official, construction documents shall include
adequate detail of the structural, mechanical, plumbing or electrical components. Adequate detail may include
computations, stress diagrams or other essential technical data and when proposed buildings are more than two stories in
height, adequate detail may specifically be required to include where floor penetrations will be made for pipes, wires,
conduits, and other components of the electrical, mechanical and plumbing systems and how such floor penetrations will be
protected to maintain the required structural integrity or fire-resistance rating, or both. All engineered documents, including
relevant computations, shall be sealed by the RDP responsible for the design.
R602.10 Wall bracing. Buildings shall be braced in accordance with this section, or, when applicable,
Section R602.12. Where a building, or portion thereof, does not comply with one or more of the bracing
requirements in this section, those portions shall be designed and constructed in accordance with Section
R301.1.
R602.10.9 Braced wall panel support. Braced wall panel support shall be provided as follows:
2. Elevated post or pier foundations supporting braced wall panels shall be designed in accordance
with accepted engineering practice.
Would you accept an Architect seal?
109.3 Engineering details. When determined necessary by the building official, construction documents shall include
adequate detail of the structural, mechanical, plumbing or electrical components. Adequate detail may include
computations, stress diagrams or other essential technical data and when proposed buildings are more than two stories in
height, adequate detail may specifically be required to include where floor penetrations will be made for pipes, wires,
conduits, and other components of the electrical, mechanical and plumbing systems and how such floor penetrations will be
protected to maintain the required structural integrity or fire-resistance rating, or both. All engineered documents, including
relevant computations, shall be sealed by the RDP responsible for the design.
R602.10 Wall bracing. Buildings shall be braced in accordance with this section, or, when applicable,
Section R602.12. Where a building, or portion thereof, does not comply with one or more of the bracing
requirements in this section, those portions shall be designed and constructed in accordance with Section
R301.1.
R602.10.9 Braced wall panel support. Braced wall panel support shall be provided as follows:
2. Elevated post or pier foundations supporting braced wall panels shall be designed in accordance
with accepted engineering practice.
Would you accept an Architect seal?
Last edited by a moderator:
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Yes.......Francis Vineyard said:
steveray
SAWHORSE
I would be OK with that Frank....just get all of the detailing you can...here, the architects are allowed to do some "incidental engineering" pertinent to their design work....I have been having that fight with the addition on piers quite frequently over the last couple years...we are not on the 09 yet, but can't wait till we get that clear language from 602.10.9...it takes about 6 code sections to get there in the 03...
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
mark h thanks again. Can you or someone give me an idea what are the limitations of their disciplines or how I can find out?
I'm getting conflicting opinions from different B.O.'s; my next step is to ask the designers.
Story; Dad helping his son renovate an old house; asked him who came up with the sizing of the columns and beams to open the floor and carry the new floor above; he's a retired DOD missile engineer. It was out of his field but he felt comfortable with his research and I accepted his position.
I'm getting conflicting opinions from different B.O.'s; my next step is to ask the designers.
Story; Dad helping his son renovate an old house; asked him who came up with the sizing of the columns and beams to open the floor and carry the new floor above; he's a retired DOD missile engineer. It was out of his field but he felt comfortable with his research and I accepted his position.
permitguy
Gold Member
Yes, I'd accept the architects seal.
Unless your state requires trade-specific registration of DPs, I'm afraid you're going to find nothing but further frustration. They benefit from being in a technical field that few understand, allowing them to pass their own rules (or get them passed by state legislators) and remain largely self-regulating. This can vary from state to state, but they are generally prohibited from preparing designs that are outside the scope of their knowledge and training. Try and ask one of them about their specific knowledge and training and they'll tell you they received the training in the college or university where they studied. Of course, these programs vary so wildly that there is no way to know for sure.
On the whole, I believe they are honest and try and do a good job. Then there are the hacks who will seal anything for a buck. I've seen every type of DP seal every type of drawing. The best hope we have is knowing that their continued livelihood depends on them not doing anything overly stupid. It's not the most reassuring feeling, but it's what most of us are faced with.
Unless your state requires trade-specific registration of DPs, I'm afraid you're going to find nothing but further frustration. They benefit from being in a technical field that few understand, allowing them to pass their own rules (or get them passed by state legislators) and remain largely self-regulating. This can vary from state to state, but they are generally prohibited from preparing designs that are outside the scope of their knowledge and training. Try and ask one of them about their specific knowledge and training and they'll tell you they received the training in the college or university where they studied. Of course, these programs vary so wildly that there is no way to know for sure.
On the whole, I believe they are honest and try and do a good job. Then there are the hacks who will seal anything for a buck. I've seen every type of DP seal every type of drawing. The best hope we have is knowing that their continued livelihood depends on them not doing anything overly stupid. It's not the most reassuring feeling, but it's what most of us are faced with.
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Each state has thier own BUILDING DESIGN LIMITATIONS
In California, ARCHITECTS May design any building of any type except:
structural portion of a hospital
APPLICABLE STATUTES
Section 129805 of Health & Safety Code
Sections 5500.1 and 6737 of Business & Professions Code
You need to read You states licensing boards limitations
In California, ARCHITECTS May design any building of any type except:
structural portion of a hospital
APPLICABLE STATUTES
Section 129805 of Health & Safety Code
Sections 5500.1 and 6737 of Business & Professions Code
You need to read You states licensing boards limitations
Frank
Registered User
In the APELSA regs
18VAC10-20-730. Competency for assignments.
A. The professional shall undertake to perform professional assignments only when qualified by education or experience, or both, and licensed or certified in the profession involved. Licensed professionals may perform assignments related to interior design provided they do not hold themselves out as certified in this profession unless they are so certified by this board. The professional may accept an assignment requiring education or experience outside of the field of the professional's competence, but only to the extent that services are restricted to those phases of the project in which the professional is qualified. All other phases of such project shall be the responsibility of licensed or certified associates, consultants or employees.
B. A professional shall not misrepresent to a prospective or existing client or employer his qualifications and the scope of his responsibility in connection with work for which he is claiming credit.
C. The professional shall adhere to the minimum standards and requirements pertaining to the practice of his own profession, as well as other professions if incidental work is performed.
Statutory Authority
§§ 54.1-201 and 54.1-404 of the Code of Virginia.
Historical Notes
Derived from VR130-01-2 § 12.5, eff. October 18, 1985; amended, Virginia Register Volume 4, Issue 8, eff. March 1, 1988; Volume 6, Issue 20, eff. September 1, 1990; Volume 7, Issue 14, eff. May 8, 1991; Volume 8, Issue 7, eff. February 1, 1992; Volume 10, Issue 15, eff. May 19, 1994; Volume 16, Issue 3, eff. December 1, 1999; Volume 23, Issue 1, eff. February 1, 2007; Volume 26, Issue 4, eff. July 1, 2010.
The determination of qualification is largely determined by the RDP themselves
In VA Architect can do incidental engineering work within their abilities?
We would accept either in this case.
From Code of Virginia
§ 54.1-401. Exemptions.
The following shall be exempted from the provisions of this chapter:
1. Practice of professional engineering and land surveying by a licensed architect when such practice is incidental to what may be properly considered an architectural undertaking.
2. Practice of architecture and land surveying by a licensed professional engineer when such practice is incidental to an engineering project.
18VAC10-20-730. Competency for assignments.
A. The professional shall undertake to perform professional assignments only when qualified by education or experience, or both, and licensed or certified in the profession involved. Licensed professionals may perform assignments related to interior design provided they do not hold themselves out as certified in this profession unless they are so certified by this board. The professional may accept an assignment requiring education or experience outside of the field of the professional's competence, but only to the extent that services are restricted to those phases of the project in which the professional is qualified. All other phases of such project shall be the responsibility of licensed or certified associates, consultants or employees.
B. A professional shall not misrepresent to a prospective or existing client or employer his qualifications and the scope of his responsibility in connection with work for which he is claiming credit.
C. The professional shall adhere to the minimum standards and requirements pertaining to the practice of his own profession, as well as other professions if incidental work is performed.
Statutory Authority
§§ 54.1-201 and 54.1-404 of the Code of Virginia.
Historical Notes
Derived from VR130-01-2 § 12.5, eff. October 18, 1985; amended, Virginia Register Volume 4, Issue 8, eff. March 1, 1988; Volume 6, Issue 20, eff. September 1, 1990; Volume 7, Issue 14, eff. May 8, 1991; Volume 8, Issue 7, eff. February 1, 1992; Volume 10, Issue 15, eff. May 19, 1994; Volume 16, Issue 3, eff. December 1, 1999; Volume 23, Issue 1, eff. February 1, 2007; Volume 26, Issue 4, eff. July 1, 2010.
The determination of qualification is largely determined by the RDP themselves
In VA Architect can do incidental engineering work within their abilities?
We would accept either in this case.
From Code of Virginia
§ 54.1-401. Exemptions.
The following shall be exempted from the provisions of this chapter:
1. Practice of professional engineering and land surveying by a licensed architect when such practice is incidental to what may be properly considered an architectural undertaking.
2. Practice of architecture and land surveying by a licensed professional engineer when such practice is incidental to an engineering project.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yikes
Gold Member
I am in an office that has 7 licensed architects on staff. Only one of us (me) could do the most incidental of engineering, e.g. calculate the withdrawal force on a residential guardrail attachment bolt, or the span of a trellis beam. We all learned just enough to pass the structural portion of the architect's license exam, then our knowledge fades and our brains atrophy from lack of regular engineering practice.
Most architects will either:
a) call a structural engineer, to spread the liability around, or
b) just eyball it and declare it safe because it looks strong.
In California, I agree with mark, architects can stamp anything except a hospital. If you feel like you are working with an architect who is "whoring out" their professional stamp without regard to safety, you are within your rights to ask for calculations for verification.
P.S. The year I took the structural portion of the architect's exam, there was one multiple choice question that had a calculation problem with the only correct answer being "consult with a structural engineer".
Most architects will either:
a) call a structural engineer, to spread the liability around, or
b) just eyball it and declare it safe because it looks strong.
In California, I agree with mark, architects can stamp anything except a hospital. If you feel like you are working with an architect who is "whoring out" their professional stamp without regard to safety, you are within your rights to ask for calculations for verification.
P.S. The year I took the structural portion of the architect's exam, there was one multiple choice question that had a calculation problem with the only correct answer being "consult with a structural engineer".
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
Thanks fella's for all the input.
Frank I had to read that over and over before I understood what it said; sort of "to-may-to" or "to-ma-toe"
Yikes you hit on it; seen a few engineer designs where I can anticipate the fix but an architect sealed without purview of the applicable code section.
Frank I had to read that over and over before I understood what it said; sort of "to-may-to" or "to-ma-toe"
Yikes you hit on it; seen a few engineer designs where I can anticipate the fix but an architect sealed without purview of the applicable code section.
RickAstoria
-------------------
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2009
- Messages
- 531
I'm not replying on the basis of Virginia but I will base my response from Oregon. In some states like Oregon, exemption for certain buildings like SFRs exists under both Architectural and Engineer's law. When such exists, all plans and specifications including calculations maybe performed by an unlicensed design professional such as a building designer PROVIDED the designer properly prepare the plans and specifications and complies with the codes and all associated standards.
The exemptions in Oregon does not say or imply any restrictions like it has to be prescriptive only. One thing about law is, if it isn't stated in law... it can't be enforced. The exemption is open to all exempt buildings and in the case of SFRs. Now that said, you should only perform work within your area of competence.
So therefore, licensed or not, (in OREGON) You may prepare calcs according to standards of engineering sciences necessary to make plans and specifications for ANY exempt building PROVIDED it is within your area of competence. It is no guarantee the permit will be issued. If the plans, specifications and any calcs used to derive the plans and specifications are improperly done and does not meet code requirements, permit will not be issued.
It depends on the state laws.
In Oregon, the work would simply require that the person who prepares the plans and specifications shall be identified.
In many circumstance, an engineer would be hired for such out of liability sake. In Oregon (and generally any state), unlicensed designers ARE liable. It is explicitly noted without any reasonable measure to be able to bypass liability. It is downright addressed in every possible way. So no weasaling out of that one.
The exemptions in Oregon does not say or imply any restrictions like it has to be prescriptive only. One thing about law is, if it isn't stated in law... it can't be enforced. The exemption is open to all exempt buildings and in the case of SFRs. Now that said, you should only perform work within your area of competence.
So therefore, licensed or not, (in OREGON) You may prepare calcs according to standards of engineering sciences necessary to make plans and specifications for ANY exempt building PROVIDED it is within your area of competence. It is no guarantee the permit will be issued. If the plans, specifications and any calcs used to derive the plans and specifications are improperly done and does not meet code requirements, permit will not be issued.
It depends on the state laws.
In Oregon, the work would simply require that the person who prepares the plans and specifications shall be identified.
In many circumstance, an engineer would be hired for such out of liability sake. In Oregon (and generally any state), unlicensed designers ARE liable. It is explicitly noted without any reasonable measure to be able to bypass liability. It is downright addressed in every possible way. So no weasaling out of that one.