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Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

mjesse

mjesse

Registered User
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
987
Location
Lincolnshire, IL.
The CEO and I are going to check out an SFR this morning with a reported 16 permanent residents.

The original plans we have on file show a 4 bedroom, 2-1/2 bath home with an unfinished partial basement. I can only assume that they finished the basement without permit at some point. I will be checking for light/vent and EERO's.

Not to sure how to enforce an overcrowding issue other than IPMC 404.5.

Any experience you have had that can be shared?

Thanks,

mj
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

That'd be the one. Sewer district or on-site septic?
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

If it's a group home (congregate living facility), then it comes under the IBC, where occupant load factors (and lots of other requirements) exist. Meeting IBC R-3 requirements is unlikely for many reasons, but at least it gives you some code to stand on.

If it's just a big family, then it's still IRC and then the IPMC is your only hope for anything to enforce.
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

I was told that here in Illinois that no more than 2 unrelated families can occupy a R occupancy. So John Smith and his wife and five kids and Pete Donally and his wife and five kids are good to go but Greg Olson is not allowed in.

That is just what I was told by our property maintenence guru.

I was also told, "Just try and enforce an occupant load on a residence" meaning that you can not tell someone how many children they are allowed to have.

Edit: If the Duggers and their 18 children find a 600 sq. ft. loft apartment for $500/month, I doubt they could be stopped from moving into it.
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

404.5 Overcrowding.

The number of persons occupying a dwelling unit shall not create conditions that, in the opinion of the code official, endanger the life, health, safety or welfare of the occupants.

If you are going to use this one you better have a lot of documentation as to how you arrived at that opinion
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

Check for 3' x 6' rectangles marked out on the floor.

I'm serious, there were a couple cases in the SF Bay Area where a guy had rentals, went in and taped off spaces, then rented the spaces to immigrants for sleeping. I think that this would be an indicator that something is fishy.

Sue, living la vida loca in the land of fruits and nuts. :roll:
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

This is a very tough one. How are you going to determine if there is a situation that "endangers the life, health, safety or welfare of the occupants."

In order to verify occupants, in Texas you need a search warrant to enter into the residence and you must have reasonable cause. Hearsay or a complaint does not work!

We always deferred complaints like that to the fire department. They are the ones who regulate occupancy loads and life, health, safety or welfare of the occupants after a CO is issued.
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

Alias: had one similar to that but no tape. The residents could rent different parts of the house. Renting a room was about $800/mo. while couches went for $200/mo. I think they had like 5 bedrooms and 4 or 5 couches. We did have a search warrant and found out the guy that was renting out space was buying the house on a contract from an absentee owner. It was in pretty bad shape. The guy did a bunch of work without permits and had spliced electrical wiring and open receptacles all over the house, not to mention the myriad of other violations. We ordered immediate evaucation of the building and cited the guy into court. When the absentee owners found out about it they terminated his contract.

We didn't have to wait too long for this guy to start over on another house before we could even schedule a court hearing for the first one. We got another search warrant and the police found a stolen car in his garage and a whole bunch of other stuff. Never did bring him into court for the building code violations - his prison term for the stolen goods isn't up yet!

To answer the OP, you have to get a lot of documentation. We had numerous complaints from neighbors and got written statements from previous occupants that had been evicted. We also had the police department with us. They were investigating drugs and gang activity. I actually went out with them at the same time they served their warrant, but that another story in itself.
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

Original complaint came from the school district. Our CEO contacted the owners, and they invited us for an inspection.

The folks were very kind when we arrived, all related- brothers, sisters, parents etc. House very well kept, clean orderly.

Basement finished many years ago, no bedroom but full bath, kitchenette, and family room area. No escape window.

1- 9-1/2'x11' bedroom and on first floor. 4 average sized bedrooms and 2 baths on second floor.

I saw no blatant code violations other than the non-permitted/non-compliant basement finish probably done over 20 years ago. I think it would be a tough sell to enforce 404.5, as I saw no immediate danger to life, health, safety or welfare.

I'm sure someone is sleeping/living in the basement, so the EERO is probably all I have to go on.

I'll report back to the Dept. heads to see where we go from here.

mj
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

I have friends that have 13 kids, all living at home. The kids are from 22 years old in college to 9 months.

They do not think it is over crowded.
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

pyrguy - Yes they do... I only have two and it felt overcrowded! :lol:
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

I grew up in a 900 square foot house where the patio was converted into a bunkroom. I have 5 brothers and 4 sisters. We occasionally had orphans from a local home stay with us. It never felt crowded. ONE bathroom until my dad built in a half bath. Most Americans think that every kid should have their own room. But then any more than two kids in a family is considered abnormal.

This is America, where we do not issue search warrants without reasonable cause. As a Fire Marshal for many years I would not touch residential overcrowding unless there was compelling evidence that did not require special means to achieve the information. Climbing trees, looking over fences, conducting surveillance is all a very slippery slope.

My sister was a postal employee and delivered 16 W-2's to a 600 square foot house. Considering the mail is confidential and releasing information would have violated her standing in the post office she could only turn the information over to a federal postal investigator. The house was used by migrant workers and to them it was a mansion. Eventually, the police responded to a disturbance and that ended the migrant house issue.

If there are too many people in a house, sooner or later the police will end up there due to tensions. As a fire prevention officer I would not go there until called in by the police. There is limited jurisdiction and very fuzzy regulations.
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

Besides, in this economy with so many people loosing their homes where are they safer? On the street?
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

Exactly Fyr. This is strictly an American "problem"

15 years ago I built a 13,000 sf home for a couple with 2 kids.

I have family members that grew up in a 600sf apartment in China with 10 permanent residents.

mj
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

mjesse said:
Exactly Fyr. This is strictly an American "problem"15 years ago I built a 13,000 sf home for a couple with 2 kids.

I have family members that grew up in a 600sf apartment in China with 10 permanent residents.

mj
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I'm not certain which one is the bigger problem. Too much or too little?

60 sq. ft. to me is a bit on the low side. 3250 sq. ft. seems like a bit on the high side. If I had a choice though I am going with the 3250 sq. ft. but I would be comfortable with about 500 - 750 sq ft per person. Of course, I am actually right in the middle there with about 600 sq. ft. per person hoping to upgrade to the 750 sq. ft.
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

OK, all kidding aside... My first reply to this topic asked a somewhat imporatant question that has not been answered.

Is this in a sewer district or an on-site sewasge disposal system?

Regardless of personal opinions about privacy/personal space, if it is an on-site sds the water usage by too many people can (and usually does) cause a septic system overload that will lead to a failure.

Raw sewage in the yard and running onto the street or abutting properties is a valid concern, and a significant risk to health and well being of both the occupants and the neighbors/community at large.
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

JD,

Municipal sewer and water system.

The Director and manager want to pursue a "s.f. per occupant" direction

The 2003 IPMC has a chart that specifies a bedroom requires 50 sf per occupant. We are using 2006...but..

At that calc. They would be allowed 13 occupants in the 5 bedrooms.

There is also a spec for an efficiency unit IPMC 404.6 that requires 320 SF for 3 occupants.

If I include the basement as an efficiency unit, full bath and kitchen w/ 330sf family room area. They could have 13 on first and second floor + 3 in the basement = 16 (which is what they have)

I don't really want to pursue this as I see no life safety concerns (excluding EERO in basement) All SD's working.

But this won't be going away. The school superintendent is looking at it as a loophole to bring more students into the district. The school is the origin of all this anyway.

mj
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

My boss wanted me to try and enforce 404.5, when the Table was in there in 2003. Our City Attorney issued an opinion that it would be very difficult, if not impossible to PROVE overcrowding. I haven't had to deal with it.....yet.
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

The school superintendent is looking at it as a loophole to bring more students into the district
Click to expand...
That is just wrong. Did you inform the owners who complained :?: The kids should already be counted in the school system unless this is a home school family. If so I know an attorney's group who would be interested in this superintendents actions
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

mt.,

We do have problems in the area with people falsely claiming residency to get into particular schools.

For the past few years my wife and I have had to attend a "proof of residency" event when registering our own kids for school.

I find it to be a HUGE waste of time and money, when the real effort should be made to strictly go after the violators only.

This, I think, is the motivation behind this particular case. Although I don't really see this family as a "problem"

I'm curious to learn more of what group you speak of...ACLU?

mj
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

Update:

The Village will be moving forward with the complaint of overcrowding. Using the 2003 IPMC as a guide..

404.4.1 Area for sleeping purposes.

Every bedroom occupied by one person shall contain at least 70 square feet (6.5 m2 ) of floor area, and every bedroom occupied by more than one person shall contain at least 50 square feet (4.6 m2 )of floor area for each occupant thereof.

We have calculated a maximum occupancy of 13, which puts them 3 over. Our first request is to ask for a "plan of compliance" with an end of month deadline.

Should be interesting. :roll:

mj
 
Re: Residential maximum occupancy- Overcrowding

I'm going to go make some popcorn.

Be right back.
 
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