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Restroom = normally unoccupied space?

Restrooms in this example should or should not be allowed along the horizontal exit?

  • It is okay for restrooms to be allowed along a horizontal exit corridor

    Votes: 1 50.0%

  • It is not okay for restrooms to be located along a horizontal exit corridor

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Total voters
    2
BayPointArchitect

BayPointArchitect

Sawhorse
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
516
Location
Lincoln
Applicable code sections:
2012 IBC 1022.4
Openings in interior exit stairway [and subsequent horizontal exit enclosure] other than unprotected exterior openings shall be limited to those necessary for exit access to the enclosure from normally occupied spaces and from egress from the enclosure. Elevators shall not open into interior exit stairways and ramps.
2012 NFPA 101 Sections 7.1.3.2.1 (9) and 7.2.1.1.3 says the same thing using different words.

Looking at the attachment,
The stairway is highlighted in green which leads or extends into the yellow horizontal exit which leads to the exit discharge. Along the path of the yellow horizontal exit, there is an elevator. The code is clear that "elevators shall not open into interior exit stairways...". Because the existing 2 hour fire-rated stairway will dump into the newly proposed horizontal exit, the same protection required by the green stairway needs to apply to the yellow corridor. Therefore the elevator may not open into this horizontal exit. But what about the restrooms? Sometimes we reason that there is not much to burn in the restroom except for the paper towels. And that would not amount to much of a problem. And some people spend a lot of time in the restroom. So how many of you code officials would say that a restroom can not be contiguous with the same air space of a stairway or horizontal exit? How many of you would say that a restroom is a normally UNoccupied space?

As always, thanks in advance!

ICC Certified Plan Reviewer
NFPA Certified Fire Plan Examiner
 

Attachments

  • NormallyOccupiedSpace.pdf
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the door swing in the green should be the other hand. What are the wall ratings \ type light gray and black? If this were a firewall it is 2 building and the point is moot.

I see no problem with this
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ok words have meaning


horizontal exit enclosure


horizontal exit


Do you want to do some clean up?
 
It is not okay for restrooms to be located along a horizontal exit corridor

I vote for nea.
 
In the picture you added the phrase "[and horizontal exit enclosure]" which is not addressed in IBC 1022.4.

Is the depicted horizontal exit corridor really an exit passage way?

IBC section 1022.3 sends you to 1023. If it an exit passageway, as regulated by IBC 1023, then I would also agree that the restrooms cannot be served by this corridor.
 
I would agree...And also might argue that the conference room is not "normally occupied".....But then I would be picking nits....If it were an exit enclosure which it doesn't seem like it is...
 
You are correct. It is an "exit passageway". As you know, an exit passageway is the thing that connects the exit stair to the exit discharge. And I think the architect's idea was to construct the walls of this exit passageway with fire-rated barriers and fire-rated ceiling and fire-rated doors, etc. But 2012 IBC 1023.5 again limits the openings to those necessary for exit access to the exit passageway from NORMALLY OCCUPIED spaces.

I like what the Commish said. "If it is a fire wall, then the point is moot. I see no problem with this."
 
BayPointArchitect said:
You are correct. It is an "exit passageway". As you know, an exit passageway is the thing that connects the exit stair to the exit discharge. And I think the architect's idea was to construct the walls of this exit passageway with fire-rated barriers and fire-rated ceiling and fire-rated doors, etc. But 2012 IBC 1023.5 again limits the openings to those necessary for exit access to the exit passageway from NORMALLY OCCUPIED spaces.

I like what the Commish said. "If it is a fire wall, then the point is moot. I see no problem with this."
Click to expand...


Do you have a pre demo plan of this area, you can post.
 
% ~ % ~ %

Time for a dumb question:

Aren't the Restrooms "Openings" protected by the doors
to each Restroom ?.....Is there a true opening at the Restrooms ?

% ~ % ~ %
 
SteveRay,

Stair = green
Exit passageway = yellow
Exit discharge labeled as "exit"

CDA,

No, I don't have a demo plan. The image that I provided is part of a screen shot that I took during a zoom meeting. Then I added color and text to make the question more clear. Currently the green exit stairway exits directly to the outside. Clean and simple. Now the architect is planning to fill up a void with the new construction that is shaded in dark grey. That creates a question about how to funnel people from the existing stairway into a new exit passageway that provides a level of safety that is not compromised by rooms located along the exit passageway.

NorthStar,

Regardless of the fire-rating of a door, an opening from a mechanical room or storage room is not allowed into an exit passageway. The door would need to be rated from a classroom (normally occupied) or an office (normally occupied) or any other normally occupied room. The hinge point is the difference between normally occupied and normally unoccupied. I would like to say that a 4 hour fire-rated door (above and beyond the minimum) would dismiss the function/occupancy of any room. But I don't think my fellow plan reviewers would agree.

ICC Certified Plan Reviewer
NFPA Certified Fire Plan Examiner
 
Last edited:
BayPointArchitect said:
SteveRay,

Stair = green
Exit passageway = yellow
Exit discharge labeled as "exit"

CDA,

No, I don't have a demo plan. The image that I provided is part of a screen shot that I took during a zoom meeting. Then I added color and text to make the question more clear. Currently the green exit stairway exits directly to the outside. Clean and simple. Now the architect is planning to fill up a void with the new construction that is shaded in dark grey. That creates a question about how to funnel people from the existing stairway into a new exit passageway that provides a level of safety that is not compromised by rooms located along the exit passageway.

NorthStar,

Regardless of the fire-rating of a door, an opening from a mechanical room or storage room is not allowed into an exit passageway. The door would need to be rated from a classroom (normally occupied) or an office (normally occupied) or any other normally occupied room. The hinge point is the difference between normally occupied and normally unoccupied. I would like to say that a 4 hour fire-rated door (above and beyond the minimum) would dismiss the function/occupancy of any room. But I don't think my fellow plan reviewers would agree.

ICC Certified Plan Reviewer
NFPA Certified Fire Plan Examiner
Click to expand...


Well that answered my question, and thought maybe something along that line.

I think another redesign is needed.

They are trying to mix and match the code, and it will not work.
 
I always thought that an exit passageway was for travel distance for an exit.... i.e similar to stairway - I believe that it has to dedicated to egress only and other uses are not allowed. In one case, exit passageway access doors were on mag locks which allowed circulation but upon fire alarm system activate, the doors swung shut and only opened into the exit passageway which lead to an exterior exit discharge.
 
If I could pick and choose an answer, I like the viewpoint of the Commish. See first reply at the beginning. After passing through a 2 hour fire wall, you enter into a separate building and relax. This implies that you should no longer be concerned about how you got there and the rules regarding an exit passageway would not apply. I like that answer.
 
# ~ #

BPA,

To nick some pits, ...did you mean "an approved 2 hour fire rated wall assembly"
instead of a 2 hour fire wall ? :)

# ~ #
 
BayPointArchitect said:
If I could pick and choose an answer, I like the viewpoint of the Commish. See first reply at the beginning. After passing through a 2 hour fire wall, you enter into a separate building and relax. This implies that you should no longer be concerned about how you got there and the rules regarding an exit passageway would not apply. I like that answer.
Click to expand...

I disagree your honor,

When you walk out of a two hour rated stair enclosure, per that thought process, you could do anything with the rest of the exit way
 
Not sure how you get past

Termination

1023.3 even with the exception

2015 IBC
 
cda said:
Not sure how you get past

Termination

1023.3 even with the exception

2015 IBC
Click to expand...

Can a horizontal exit (in years passed a corridor) be on a ground floor not beginning at a stair but from a suite of offices, connect to an exterior exit (a typical condition on many sites), RR's with rated doors and walls connect to it. Also see this in airports such as Burbank ( a long horizontal room with many rooms opening into it)
 
I believe that restrooms or similar unoccupied spaces can open into a vestibule which opens into the exit, so there are 2 doors to go through. They just can't open directly into the exit.
 
as Steveray stated a FW or HE will gain you some relief but this information was not provided in the original post or diagram.
 
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