Rough Electrical Inspections: Are You Really Inspecting the Wiring or Just the Cables?

[jar546]

I’ve seen this enough times that it needs to be said. During a rough electrical inspection, every electrical box should have all its wires terminated. That means neutrals are connected, grounds are spliced with pigtails, and everything is ready for device installation. I’m not talking about testing functionality; that happens at final, but at rough, the only chance you get to verify what’s inside the boxes is before they’re covered up.

Yet I keep hearing that some inspectors don’t require the terminations to be in place. They’re approving roughs where the cables are secured and routed, but the conductors are just cut and hanging loose inside the boxes. If that’s all you’re inspecting, then you’re only doing half the job. Once the drywall is up and the devices are installed, you’ve lost your chance to check box fill, conductor count, splices, bonding, and pigtailed grounds. You can't retroactively confirm if everything was done right.

What’s the value in walking a job at rough if you can’t see whether the installer actually completed the internal wiring? It’s a waste of everyone’s time if you’re not verifying what matters.

Curious to hear how others approach this. Do you require all splices and pigtails to be made at rough, or do you wait until final and hope it was done right?

 

[bill1952]

Ill just report the maybe 10 or do times my diy electrical rough has been inspected, just boxes and wires in box. Recent one was all exposed wiring in a garage, all EMT. Rough was just the ufer ground, final was everything else.

I expect inspectors profile to some degree. I don't think any inspector has ever thought I was trying to get away with not complying, though like even the most competent, I can make a mistake.

 

[steveray]

What’s the value in walking a job at rough if you can’t see whether the installer actually completed the internal wiring?

Sooooooo...... if you are not seeing the final connections to the device are you only doing half the job? Should we have the receptacles out and the lights hanging down at final? We could always do more/ better, but the question is do we have time and resources to do so and/ or can we argue for more resources.... This is not much different than sheathing inspections or WRB inspections or roof underlayment inspections or air barrier inspections that most places do not do....

 

[jar546]

Sooooooo...... if you are not seeing the final connections to the device are you only doing half the job? Should we have the receptacles out and the lights hanging down at final? We could always do more/ better, but the question is do we have time and resources to do so and/ or can we argue for more resources.... This is not much different than sheathing inspections or WRB inspections or roof underlayment inspections or air barrier inspections that most places do not do....

Not quite the same. If you are not ensuring that the metal boxes are grounded, they don't have the neutrals of two different circuits tied together, and the box is ready for the device, there is no reason to do a rough electrical. I am rather firm on this. We can always test the receptacle and hope everything else was hooked up correctly, which it should have been because all of the prep work was done. This is a complete non-issue where I am and where I came from. This is the expectation we set, and this is what the electrician must follow in order to pass an inspection. Zero, I will repeat, ZERO pushback on this. I have inspected electrical roughs in over 40 municipalities in both Pennsylvania and Florida, and having this expectation is a complete non-issue.

You can read my article about the dead 14-year-old boy because of a missing ground screw if you want. My feet are firmly planted in the ground on this one and always will be. To push this a little further, not requiring this is simply another level of laziness and negligence.

 

[Sifu]

On my best day I was not a great electrical inspector but we always required terminations. Working on my new house now, found at least a dozen open grounds, not a single pigtail....among lots of other even worse problems too numerous to even begin to list.

 

[steveray]

Not quite the same.

Correct...I'm not a fan of dead kids, but it is all about money that moves the needle on code:

 

[jar546]

Correct...I'm not a fan of dead kids, but it is all about money that moves the needle on code:

View attachment 16175

Forgive my ignorance, but I am lost with your point. I need a little help here.

 

[steveray]

Forgive my ignorance, but I am lost with your point. I need a little help here.

If you want something specific for an inspection, put it in the code specifically or adopt it locally where applicable:

110.1.1 Posting of required inspections.​

A schedule of required inspections shall be compiled by the building official. The schedule shall be posted in the building department for public view.

110.3.13 Electrical inspections.​

Required electrical inspections shall include installations of temporary services prior to activation; installation of underground piping and conductors after trenches are excavated and bedded and before backfill is put in place; rough inspections of installed wiring and components after the roof, framing, fireblocking and bracing are complete and prior to concealment; and final inspection after all work required by the permit is complete.

[A]Other inspections.​

In addition to the inspections specified in Sections 110.3.1 through 110.3.9, the building official is authorized to make or require other inspections of any construction work to ascertain compliance with the provisions of this code and other laws that are enforced by the department of building safety.

 

[jar546]

If you want something specific for an inspection, put it in the code specifically or adopt it locally where applicable:

110.1.1 Posting of required inspections.​

A schedule of required inspections shall be compiled by the building official. The schedule shall be posted in the building department for public view.

110.3.13 Electrical inspections.​

Required electrical inspections shall include installations of temporary services prior to activation; installation of underground piping and conductors after trenches are excavated and bedded and before backfill is put in place; rough inspections of installed wiring and components after the roof, framing, fireblocking and bracing are complete and prior to concealment; and final inspection after all work required by the permit is complete.

[A]Other inspections.​

In addition to the inspections specified in Sections 110.3.1 through 110.3.9, the building official is authorized to make or require other inspections of any construction work to ascertain compliance with the provisions of this code and other laws that are enforced by the department of building safety.

This is a rough inspection. We are not spelling out that the cables must be secured, or that the wire size must be the right size. This is a rough inspection for electrical which means the next time we see it, the boxes will be covered. Why waste your time looking at a bunch of NM cable sticking out of a box?

 

[Sifu]

"next time we see it, the boxes will be covered"

This is why we did it.

 

[BN4537]

We inspect the cables and their securement. We do not inspect the terminations other than in the panels, plug testing outlets, and working the light switches. Our jurisdiction only has combination inspectors, no dedicated electrical guy (aside from me, but I'm a combo inspector who just likes electrical). Most of our inspectors would not be able to perform these inspections competently at this time. If we had a dedicated electrical guy, we could and should enforce this on rough in. Without one, and having to turn the tide of what contractors are accustomed to, it would be a fool's errand that provides little benefit in the real world.

None of us in this industry can hold the electrical professional's hand on every single wire, termination, and raceway. They are licensed for a reason. There are many very critical provisions of the NEC that cannot be verified by an inspector because they will not be visible. Many that are visible cannot be understood without studying and testing the whole system - if they tied the wrong phase of hots together, or combined the wrong neutrals, we wouldn't know until they get energized, if at all. If they splice wires inside a conduit with butt splices, we would never know. If they want to sneak violations past us, they can. Ultimately, the responsibility for the safety of these installations cannot be laid on anyone but the installer - we just try to help them keep out of trouble.

Box fill calculations really don't require the wiring to be terminated - if four cables enter a box on rough inspection, and you know it will be a row of light switches, you can already calculate what the box fill is. The presence of AFCI's helps with loose terminations, and the plug testing gives us a snapshot of the competence of the installers. If it's bad, we will know to investigate further. Metallic raceways often provide redundant bonding that helps offset some workmanship issues - if the raceways are in good shape, you don't really need to question the bonding in a most boxes. If you see a potential break in continuity, you can investigate then. For receptacle grounding stingers, even if they aren't using "grounding type receptacles", the fact is that the yoke still acts as a ground path and the effectiveness of that path still relies on a proper install, so if a stinger was missed in one outlet, it should still function properly in the real world.

My point is that if you are inspecting the other factors like you should be, you can catch almost all of the important issues without ever going into the boxes. The problems I hear about after we inspect are not things that would have been caught on inspection anyway, even looking in the boxes. We just don't have real world problems that are being caused by this in our area.

I caught a downstream neutral problem the other day with my plug tester - the middle light was on, but it was dim. The other outlets, all lights were bright. That told me that the voltage between hot and neutral was low. Sure enough, when the took the outlet apart, there was 22v from neutral to ground, 98v from hot to neutral, full nominal 118v between hot and ground. Detecting the problem did not require opening a box or a light fixture, even though that is probably where the problem is. You can get a high level of confidence in an electric system without ever going into the boxes if you do everything else right.

 

[steveray]

We inspect the cables and their securement. We do not inspect the terminations other than in the panels, plug testing outlets, and working the light switches. Our jurisdiction only has combination inspectors, no dedicated electrical guy (aside from me, but I'm a combo inspector who just likes electrical). Most of our inspectors would not be able to perform these inspections competently at this time. If we had a dedicated electrical guy, we could and should enforce this on rough in. Without one, and having to turn the tide of what contractors are accustomed to, it would be a fool's errand that provides little benefit in the real world.

None of us in this industry can hold the electrical professional's hand on every single wire, termination, and raceway. They are licensed for a reason. There are many very critical provisions of the NEC that cannot be verified by an inspector because they will not be visible. Many that are visible cannot be understood without studying and testing the whole system - if they tied the wrong phase of hots together, or combined the wrong neutrals, we wouldn't know until they get energized, if at all. If they splice wires inside a conduit with butt splices, we would never know. If they want to sneak violations past us, they can. Ultimately, the responsibility for the safety of these installations cannot be laid on anyone but the installer - we just try to help them keep out of trouble.

Box fill calculations really don't require the wiring to be terminated - if four cables enter a box on rough inspection, and you know it will be a row of light switches, you can already calculate what the box fill is. The presence of AFCI's helps with loose terminations, and the plug testing gives us a snapshot of the competence of the installers. If it's bad, we will know to investigate further. Metallic raceways often provide redundant bonding that helps offset some workmanship issues - if the raceways are in good shape, you don't really need to question the bonding in a most boxes. If you see a potential break in continuity, you can investigate then. For receptacle grounding stingers, even if they aren't using "grounding type receptacles", the fact is that the yoke still acts as a ground path and the effectiveness of that path still relies on a proper install, so if a stinger was missed in one outlet, it should still function properly in the real world.

My point is that if you are inspecting the other factors like you should be, you can catch almost all of the important issues without ever going into the boxes. The problems I hear about after we inspect are not things that would have been caught on inspection anyway, even looking in the boxes. We just don't have real world problems that are being caused by this in our area.

I caught a downstream neutral problem the other day with my plug tester - the middle light was on, but it was dim. The other outlets, all lights were bright. That told me that the voltage between hot and neutral was low. Sure enough, when the took the outlet apart, there was 22v from neutral to ground, 98v from hot to neutral, full nominal 118v between hot and ground. Detecting the problem did not require opening a box or a light fixture, even though that is probably where the problem is. You can get a high level of confidence in an electric system without ever going into the boxes if you do everything else right.

R105.8 Responsibility.​

It shall be the duty of every person who performs work for the installation or repair of building, structure, electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing systems, for which this code is applicable, to comply with this code.

 

[jar546]

R105.8 Responsibility.​

It shall be the duty of every person who performs work for the installation or repair of building, structure, electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing systems, for which this code is applicable, to comply with this code.

Then why inspect at all?

 

[jar546]

Most of our inspectors would not be able to perform these inspections competently at this time.

Then why bother?
What is more important, a staple within 12" of the box on NM cable, or compliance with 200.4(A)?

 

[Joe.B]

 

[BN4537]

What is more important, a staple within 12" of the box on NM cable, or compliance with 200.4(A)?

Neutrals get mixed all the time. The only real hazard I could think of is that an electrician could get zapped if he doesn't follow safe work practices, i.e. making sure the wires he's working on isn't hot, even when he thinks he flipped the right breaker. The electrician should know better than to trust the last guy, so I'm not real sympathetic.

The good part about mixed neutrals is that it often gets fixed before CO because something doesn't work right and they interfere with troubleshooting. In some rare cases, they even trip AFCI's. Failing that, a competent electrician is likely to find it and fix it later. Or it will never be a problem and no one ever finds it.

The staple within 12" of the box reduces vibration in the wires that might help loosen a connection and start a fire. It really can't be fixed later.

Neither is likely to be a real issue.

 

[jar546]

Neutrals get mixed all the time. The only real hazard I could think of is that an electrician could get zapped if he doesn't follow safe work practices, i.e. making sure the wires he's working on isn't hot, even when he thinks he flipped the right breaker. The electrician should know better than to trust the last guy, so I'm not real sympathetic.

The good part about mixed neutrals is that it often gets fixed before CO because something doesn't work right and they interfere with troubleshooting. In some rare cases, they even trip AFCI's. Failing that, a competent electrician is likely to find it and fix it later. Or it will never be a problem and no one ever finds it.

The staple within 12" of the box reduces vibration in the wires that might help loosen a connection and start a fire. It really can't be fixed later.

Neither is likely to be a real issue.

I see no point in an electrical rough if you are not verifying that the metal boxes are grounded and wires are ready for termination. What is so difficult about enforcing the code during an inspection? Are your electricians incapable of being ready for an inspection? Are you enabling them rather than setting a standard for minimum code compliance? I don't understand the logic or reasoning behind this.

 

[fatboy]

We did it like you said JAR, everything terminated, back in the day we required the panel to be made up, including breakers (they were cheaper back then). Then we could allow the meter installation.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Curious to hear how others approach this. Do you require all splices and pigtails to be made at rough, or do you wait until final and hope it was done right?

Yes, I do but I get no one else requires this all the time.

 

[jar546]

Yes, I do but I get no one else requires this all the time.

The important thing is that you continue to take the high road. Thank you for doing so.

 

[BN4537]

Mostly I'm just trolling this thread. Doing thorough inspections is admirable, and having combo inspectors that can perform at the same level as a specialized electrical inspector while remaining competent in all other disciplines is ideal. Failing that, having specialized inspectors who can take the time to chase the most complex issues is the next best option.