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Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

P

permitguy

Gold Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
583
Location
Metro Denver, CO
Does your jurisdiction set off alarms during routine compliance inspections in order to "test" the actions of the monitoring agency (i.e. posting the system for testing with your dispatch center and making sure they get the alarm call)?

Regardless of the answer for your jurisdiction, do you know of other jurisdictions that perform this action?
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

Excellent question Permit!

We have been doing it that way since 1994 but the facility personnel (i.e. owner’s representative) does the pulling since we don’t want the liability for the system. In our national chain large distribution center and super-center we found them calling the facility first which is a no, no. In others we have found (after investigation) that the monitoring facility was not compliant for a central station or for that matter a remote receiving facility. In other tests we discovered our own dispatching center sitting on calls in which they don't anymore. One never knows how the SYSTEM is maintained unless testing the entire system all the way back to your portable radio. We have many other jurisdictions in our state that do it the way we do. In my opinion you don’t just do it at the acceptance test and hope they maintain the system. When facilities have the monitoring facility call them first it’s typically a result of having too many false alarms and they don’t want us to know and issue fines to have them fix their false alarm causing issues :)
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

Thanks for the responses so far - Please keep them coming!

RJJ - is that for initial acceptance of new installations, or for annual fire code compliance inspections? Or both? Thanks . . .
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

I know our building is fully tested annually..........
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

I do it on initial accpetance test if I have a doubt about what the monitoring comapnyis telling me, i will have the f/a tech take it off of test and then activate it to see what if any signal our dispatch gets,

after that may do it on complaints if there is a question if the system is monitored or some other problem
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

Do you know how many fire alarm technicians just use a screw driver to test the alarm circuit BUT never test the device?? WAY TOO MANY

How do I know?? Because we witness the water flow from inspectors tests on sprinkler systems and get no signal! Look at the alarm company inspection report and everything worked fine, BUT they never flowed water. You will be surprised how many bad flow switches we find!

Also we record the time the test was done and then call the alarm company, to verify, again you cannot believe the number of times they do not get a signal.

So if I had a life hazard I would spend the time making sure the system worked!
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

Permitguy: I do both! I even want to test if they have altered the system for a tenant fit out. Even a real small alteration.

Insurance Engineer is right on! You must be sure the system works and yes flow switches fail! The alarm reports are fine,but can be incomplete.

Here is a simple example from yesterday. 3 story office fully sprinkled that had added a new FM 200 system and some sprinkler alterations on the lower level and first floor. Granted this is new work.

The FM 200 the room had two smokes. Only one worked while being tested. These are brand new smokes. They finally got the smoke to work. I requested the smoke be changed and we retest afterwards.

We later tested the flow switch for the first and lower floor. All worked just fine and the exterior bell worked as well. I requested that we test the third floor as well. The response from the contractor was we didn't do any work up there. We tested that area and the exterior bell failed to ring. Seems that the fire panel indicated all systems were good. Later discovered the strike arm in the bell had broken on the third test. It was sending a correct signal to the panel, but no noise. If I hadn't request the third floor testing I would have never known the bell had failed after the first test.

I have some other examples that I have incountered over the last year that has changed my out look on just how detailed the testing has to be.
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

To clarify, I'm not referring to quality control of the fire alarm contractors. That would be impossible for us to accomplish. Our staff is very familiar with the required testing and how to review the reports for completeness. We are diligent in reviewing these reports, and cite it as a violation if they are not on site when we perform the inspection. We also require documentation of repairs when deficiencies are found. I'm only talking about setting off the fire alarm long enough for the signal to go through, then waiting for a call from our dispatchers to verify the monitoring agency performed appropriately. Neither the IFC nor 72 speak to the issue of testing the monitoring agency as a matter of routine, at least not that I can find.

We are discussing starting this procedure because that's how some did it in a previous jurisdiction. If we set aside the business disruption and the fact that the we're going to piss off every business by starting this after decades of not doing it, I still see more cons than pros.

Cons: Adding to complacency from yet another false alarm, scheduling inspections (after hours requests will become commonplace), extra time spent on each inspection (Guestimate: 1,000 alarm panels per year if we start this procedure times 10 minutes minimum per alarm), liability if we cause a problem (or, if we make the RP perform the actions, we would ALWAYS need them present during inspections - a real problem with some occupancies), physical building changes that must be dealt with (fire doors, smoke control sytems, etc).

Pros: We verify that the monitoring agency receives the signal and calls the FD instead of the RP. I see a few problems with the logic in this. First, there is no guarantee that identifying and fixing a problem from one test means you've solved the problem permanently (we're only in there once a year maximum, and we're likely dealing with different monitoring agency personnel for each alarm). Second, I don't see how we can cite and RP for the actions of the monitoring agency even if we identify a problem. Third, if semi-annual and annual testing wasn't enough to verify system operation, I think the IFC and 72 would require more.

I'm still torn. I wonder what percentage of systems we'd find with monitoring agencies not contacting our dispatch? I'm guessing it would be pretty low based on the number of false alarm calls we already run! :lol:
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

I only have it done if there is a complaint or if I feel there may be a problem.

I do not see a need, except maybe certain high hazard targets to have this done
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

Permitguy: I missed your point at first. Maybe IFC or 72 would require this if large problems existed.

I have several occupancy's that this type of testing has been done in the last year. Some issues are a mistake in the address being sent to the monitoring station. Some with false alarms because of a malfunction in the panel. These show up in advance and then correction is made.

What end result would be accomplished if this testing were done? Are you having problems with out doing this testing? :roll:
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

Those who did this in a previous jurisdiction said they occasionally found the same problems outlined by FM Burns above. It sounds like the problems were very infrequent, but they are insistent that we are doing a disservice to those we protect by not performing this test.

To our knowledge, we have never suffered a loss of life or property as a result of improper monitoring practices.

One problem with incorrect address reporting is that it could simply be a case of the monitoring agency personnel transposing the numbers as they read them off a screen.

I tend to agree with cda, but I'm still open to other thoughts/opinions.

Thanks!
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

Permit:

If using NFPA 2007 Chapter 8.2 and 8.3 are pretty clear as to the signal transmission requirements and (8.3.7.5) is pretty clear as to test signals. The systems must be maintained to perform as approved by design and installation in accordance Chapter 10 and (10.1.3) and (10.2.1.1) will give your jurisdiction the ability to perform the testing of the monitoring facilities to verify performance as designed and approved. Your notification to your dispatching center prior to the test and verification via contact after the test procedure complies with (10.2.3.1) and when in doubt see Table 10.4.2.2 (10d) and (18a). You can find all similar in 2002 edition also.

Regarding the Pro’s and Con’s throw them away since the code guides you through the process of what needs to be done and how to assure interfaces with other equipment need to be handled and provides job security in bad economies. The verification of the receipt of signals is the responsibility of the facility and in their best interest. When we started back in 1994 when I arrived in the jurisdiction, I brought the procedure with me from the south since we had been doing it that way since 1985 when I learned NFPA 72. The use of good customer service by explaining why you test this procedure and why it’s essential to the TOTAL system performance is what they pay for. Once they understood this they realized that we were there to reduce their fire risk and exposure and there have been no issues and I work in one of the most conservative areas of our state full of people who want less regulation.

P.S. One of the largest monitoring firms with (3) initials know exactly why this test is necessary since we caught them sitting on a waterflow alarm for 1.5 hours in 2004. After I was directed and talked to their legal department and had a conference call with their president of operations in Boca, FL; they fired 4 of their operators and sent us a copy of their new policy and thanked us. One never knows when the operators (if only 2 minimum) head out for a smoke or send the transmission to another terminal and that person is away for whatever reason and delays in re-transmission occur. You never know and if their is a loss, their legal departments will be looking at subrogation for sure and I deflect that potential by knowing that all alarm firms in our region know what we expect for their service, testing and maintenance.

Once these firms know that you are watching the systems and testing closely the percentages of problems decrease, trust me! Our false alarm have been reduced since 1994 by 82% and are directly related to our Type A personalities in fire alarm and suppression system service, maintenance and testing requirements in accordance with code. We only had to write 3 tickets to the monitoring facility managers (at time) and a couple to facilities and the word was out that one had better do it to code or the FMO would come knocking.
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

I wouldn't question our authority to do it in accordance with 72 and the IFC. It isn't required though, right? All I'm questioning is the necessity.

This sounds very similar to the debate in our office. Those who have done it before think it's necessary. Those who haven't done it before diagree on the necessity.

I still think that most of the problems we would identify are contingent on a human factor that is variable from hour to hour, day to day. The example of someone taking a smoke break is a perfect example. One minute they're at their terminal ready to act. The next they're outside smoking. If you happen to set off the alarm when they're ready to act, you haven't identified the problem that occurs when they go for a smoke. I think the problems found would be very infrequent compared to the amount of effort. A new policy and a "thank you" might make us feel better, but I don't see how they'd really solve the problem. There is no way we can monitor their interal training and quality control to ensure the new policy is being practiced. We can't write tickets. We can write a summons to court, but the political will isn't there for that. The best we'll do is make a scolding phone call and move on to the next inspection.

I guess we'll see what happens soon enough. We have a meeting later this week to discuss the issue.

Thanks so much for all the input. I value all of it!
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

permitguy

You could catch a lot of stuff simply by asking the question on your site inspection "Did the person conducting the test actually, flow water, test the detector, etc. etc"? The answer u will get is " I do not know I did not follow the person around" Your response, next time follow him/her around" At least for the ONE time the equipment will at least be tested! :oops: Then explain the problem when the actual device is not being tested, you have a fire, and it does not work.

The building owner is paying big $$ to have the company come out and TEST the equipment as per the code. When you start asking questions of the building owner I can bet they will be asking the company coming through the door the same thing. All of sudden the word will get out that you actually have to test equipment in your town because YOU ASK for it!!... what a concept. You know what gets measured gets done!!! :lol:
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

I guess it will come down to the Bureau Chief's comfort level. For this one, and partly due to what I've seen in the field over many years and the investigative nature I have, I demand that all companies in our jurisdiction perform to the code minimum which includes testing the entire system and as InsEng mentions, pretty soon companies will know what is expected. Heck, I don't even mind anymore being the training ground for new Tech's working in our area. At least I know they will or should be consistant in other areas and that makes our jobs easier in all phases over time such as plan review expectations, acceptance testing and our own customers training and behavior with alarm activations.

Good luck in the meetings and remember what has made me last for so many years......CYA ;)
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

We test during our inspections.....we radio dispatch and inform them of the test at the particular address and they report back when the monitoring co. reports it. A little embarrassing if you forget to inform dispatch of the testing.... :oops:
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

FM: The sections you referenced are for start up! Have I missed something, I may need to re read that section.

Permitguy: Some of the address problems came as a result of renumbering certain stores etc. Just bad programing of the unit numbers. This first appeared as a result of a false alarm. Then I checked into it and found the problems and tested all for correct ID.

My first thought is that for a larger ahj the testing of all panels will be quite time consuming. For me I would look at the testing on a case by case bases. The most critical a Yes and the least critical a maybe.

If your on the fence with this I would start to test them,here and there and see if problems starts to arise. This should give you a handle on the whole issue for you town.
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

Rjj:

The sections referenced are those of what the system is expected to do “as designed” for when it was installed and as “maintained, inspected and tested” for operations when we verify system compliance years after installation.

.........systems must be maintained to perform as approved by design and installation in accordance Chapter 10 and..........
Click to expand...
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

We test monitoring on all final f/s inspections and f/a tests...have found many many problems; incorrect address; signal sent to the wrong fire dept; signals coming in as supervisory and not alarm...etc

It's a good feeling to catch these things early on instead of when its needed..

Just like FM Burns I'm all about CYA ;)

We're the same as Beach...we notify our dispatch prior to testing....
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

FM: Thanks! I went back and read over the sections again. Hard to keep all the info in one brain cell! :D

cheyer: I am more about the system working as it is supposed too rather then CYA!
 
Re: Setting Off Alarms During Compliance Inspections?

Rjj,

I made the reference to CYA and as such, one can't truly cover one's rear unless that can verify the system performs as designed and is required to be maintained, tested and inspected in accordance with the applicable code :)
 
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