• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

SHORT NAILING

R

Rider Rick

Silver Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
468
Chapter 6 Wall Construction Table R602.3(1) 2006 IRC.

Question of the week

Nail spacing for rim joist or blocking to mud sill?

Thank you,

Rick
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

Robert Ellenberg said:
I can't find it but we go 6"oc which is what it calls for where rim joist to top plate connection is used.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply Robert.

To me and some of the framers that seems to be alot of nails for the rim joist when the floor joist are nailed whith two 16 penny nails at the mudsill.

I'm not sure the rim joist to the mudsill is clear in table R602.3(1)

Thank you,

Rick

PS

Beach what's you take?
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

A dumb reply, admittedly, but why would the requirement for "Rim joist to top plate" (12th line down on T602.3(1)) be any different, in terms of physical characteristics and dynamics, from "Rim joist to mudsill"? (I'm seriously asking - not being a smart aleck)
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

Code Neophyte said:
A dumb reply, admittedly, but why would the requirement for "Rim joist to top plate" (12th line down on T602.3(1)) be any different, in terms of physical characteristics and dynamics, from "Rim joist to mudsill"? (I'm seriously asking - not being a smart aleck)
Click to expand...
Code Neophyte,

No dumb replies in the code business.

I ask this question because two different framers on two different jobs asked me this week.

These are single story houses and they are nailing 16 penny nails at 6" on center and the rim joist are splitting.

When I was framing we nailed the rim joist to mud sill with 16 penny 16" on center.

Maybe the problem is the code is 8 penny nails 6" on center.

Thank you,

Rick
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

OH... like 8-16d nails on each side of a strap for a top plate notch isn't going to split the top plate?

it will... it does.. yet.. we enforce it..
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

I've always taken the rim joist to top plate as being the same as rim joist to mud sill.

I've never been challenged on it, and I suppose if I ever am, I might need to eat crow.

In my previous jurisdiction, it was always on the plans in nearly every project I inspected as 6" o.c. We were in a D-2 zone, and the engineers always had it specified (almost)

If they toe nail the joists to the mud sill, I would take that partially into account, but the engineered plans I used to see had both the 6" o.c. at the rim (and/or blocking) and (typically) (2) nails into the mud sill at the ends of the joists as well. In that case, they would both be required. Alot of those houses had I-joists, and those required the (2) nails.
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

So, what if there is no rim (band) joist? Isn't purpose of a band joist to "block" the floor joists from rotation, not to attach to the mud sill?
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

If it is permissible to build without a bandsil, why would there be a required schedule of nailing to mudsill? If the nailing were required, wouldn't the band joist also be required?

Is there a requirement for a band joist?
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

Heaven,

There is no code requirement to use a band/rim joist the framers use rim joist because it is faster to frame and easier to plumb and line.

Rick
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

Would it follow then that there is no required spacing for nailing the rim/band joist (or blocking) to the sill?
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

2006 IRC

R502.7 Lateral restraint at supports.

Joists shall be supported laterally at the ends by full-depth solid blocking not less than 2 inches (51 mm) nominal in thickness; or by attachment to a full-depth header, band or rim joist, or to an adjoining stud or shall be otherwise provided with lateral support to prevent rotation.

In the WFCM, Table 3.1 Nailing Schedule has "Band Joist to Sill or Top Plate (Toe-nailed)" = 2-16d common or 3-16d box nails per foot.
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

TJacobs said:
2006 IRCR502.7 Lateral restraint at supports.

Joists shall be supported laterally at the ends by full-depth solid blocking not less than 2 inches (51 mm) nominal in thickness; or by attachment to a full-depth header, band or rim joist, or to an adjoining stud or shall be otherwise provided with lateral support to prevent rotation.

In the WFCM, Table 3.1 Nailing Schedule has "Band Joist to Sill or Top Plate (Toe-nailed)" = 2-16d common or 3-16d box nails per foot.
Click to expand...
Is that table referenced in the IRC?
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

It's incorporated in Section R301.2.1.1 Design Criteria... in Referenced Standards, it's under AF&PA (American Forest and Paper Assocation).
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

Thanks, Peach. After reading Heaven's reply, I had to go back and re-read the OP to make sure the question wasn't framed in the context of the '09 codes. I thought perhaps the Green trend had eliminated a lot of nailing requirements, due to the high pollutant emissions of the steel plants, the fossil fuel usage required to ship nails (in most cases, over 150 miles - G*& forbid!), the energy use by air compressors to power the pneumatic nailers, or even worse, the methane release when framers use the "cordless" MAP gas-powered nailers!
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

ever heard of this crazy invention? It's called a hammer... now that's as green as it gets!
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

I have heard of them, although I thought OSHA had outlawed them due to their lack of a safety mechanism. I only recently learned that - in event of power outage or other emergency - they can be used for the entire nail-driving process (I had previously understood they were only used to "set" pneumatic nails that were not driven all the way in or to knock off concrete ties that remained after formwork has been removed) :shock: :lol:
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

A shoe is a hammering device and can legally be used to drive exempt nails.
 
Re: SHORT NAILING

peach said:
It's incorporated in Section R301.2.1.1 Design Criteria... in Referenced Standards, it's under AF&PA (American Forest and Paper Assocation).
Click to expand...
Thank you,

"R301.2.1.1 Design criteria.

Construction in regions where the basic wind speeds from Figure R301.2(4) equal or exceed 100 miles per hour (45 m/s) in hurricane-prone regions, or 110 miles per hour (49 m/s) elsewhere, shall be designed in accordance with one of the following: etc etc"

My area is not in one of these regions. Is there are other code language that requires nailing from a mud sill to a rim/band joist?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top