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Shower grab bars and clear space

Sifu

Sifu

SAWHORSE
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
2,813
A DP has specified a grab bar that runs the entire length of the control wall and width of the clear space in front. 2017 ANSI 117.1 609.7 prohibits the bar from "obstructing" the clear space. With this being the control wall, not the transfer wall, I am trying to figure out if the grab bar "obstructs" the clear space. Or, if this is meant to be a general prohibition for a grab bar over the clear space. Note that the clear space around water closets is exempted from this. I am inclined to interpret "obstruct" subjectively. If the transfer takes place on the opposite end how does that bar obstruct the clear space? But I am not in a wheelchair, so maybe I can't understand. Anyone encountered this before? I thought maybe this was just a drawing error, but GB-1A is unlike any other grab bar specified. All other showers in the building stop at the shower wall, but they also all have the control wall opposite what is shown.

1698168472010.png
 
Interesting... have not seen anyone propose the longer grab bar on the control wall, although it makes some sense to me. I would generally agree that the grab bar does not obstruct the clear floor space. Given its height above the floor and limited projection, I do not think it obstructs the use of the clear floor space from its intended use. I do see this as increasing the users ability to transfer into the shower compartment.

Taking a look at the horizontal grab bar requirement (A117.1 Sec. 608.3.1.1), it only indicates that the grab bar be provides across the control wall.

IMHO, I think the proposed design is acceptable.

2017 A117.1 ​

608.3.1.1 Horizontal Grab Bars​

Horizontal grab bars shall be provided across the control wall and on the back wall to a point 18 inches (455 mm) from the control wall.
 
Also, I think it is worth noting the location of the curtain. The clear floor space for the transfer is within the wet area. The designer may be attempting to address the possibility of a wet floor in the clear floor space and provide additional support during the transfer motion. Typically, the curtain is across the transfer opening, thus the chair is located outside the wet area of the shower. In the proposed case, the chair would appear to stay within the wet area of the shower during use of the shower unless the person is assisted. The curtain placement may be unfavorable to the user, but I do not see that as being addressed by the code.
 
mark handler said:
Even though 604.3.3 Clearance Overlap, relates to toilets, i have always allowed the grab bars to encroach into the clear "floor space" of the Showers. because that is what is indicated in the figures....
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Agree... but I also think of the following section that specifically indicates that a grab bar cannot be installed in any manner that would obstruct the clear floor space; thus the implication is that a grab bar could, but must be installed in a manner that does not.

609.7 Installation and Configuration​

Grab bars shall be installed in any manner that provides a gripping surface at the locations specified in this standard and does not obstruct the clear floor space. Horizontal and vertical grab bars shall be permitted to be separate bars, a single piece bar, or combination thereof.
 
classicT said:
The whole section was posted. It does not specify horizontal or vertical; therefore, I'd say it applies to both.
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I thought that the question was, "How could that apply to any grab bar?" I don't see how it could apply to a horizontal grab bar but there is a possibility that it could apply to a vertical grab bar.
 
For the "clear floor space" required in 609.7, we can refer to 305.4 which says that clear floor or ground space shall be permitted to include knee and toe clearance complying with 306.
306 requires min. 27" clear AFF for knee clearance.
Grab bars are required by 608.3 to be installed per 609.4, which says the mounting height is 33-38" AFF, which is sufficiently high enough to allow the knee and toe clearance underneath it.

So if we use 305, 306, 608 and 609 together, I don't see a problem with a longer grab bar.
 
Yikes said:
For the "clear floor space" required in 609.7, we can refer to 305.4 which says that clear floor or ground space shall be permitted to include knee and toe clearance complying with 306.
306 requires min. 27" clear AFF for knee clearance.
Grab bars are required by 608.3 to be installed per 609.4, which says the mounting height is 33-38" AFF, which is sufficiently high enough to allow the knee and toe clearance underneath it.

So if we use 305, 306, 608 and 609 together, I don't see a problem with a longer grab bar.
Click to expand...
I generally agree with the assessment that you have presented.

However, care needs to be used in the application. Knee/toe clearance can be applied where the element is at the persons front. Knee/toe clearance cannot be applied along the side of the clear floor space. If a grab bar (horizontal or vertical) were provided along the side wall, along the long side of the clear floor space, that grab bar could obstruct the clear floor space and thus be a violation of Sec. 609.7 (as I posted above).
 
classicT said:
Interesting... have not seen anyone propose the longer grab bar on the control wall, although it makes some sense to me. I would generally agree that the grab bar does not obstruct the clear floor space. Given its height above the floor and limited projection, I do not think it obstructs the use of the clear floor space from its intended use. I do see this as increasing the users ability to transfer into the shower compartment.

Taking a look at the horizontal grab bar requirement (A117.1 Sec. 608.3.1.1), it only indicates that the grab bar be provides across the control wall.

IMHO, I think the proposed design is acceptable.

2017 A117.1 ​

608.3.1.1 Horizontal Grab Bars​

Horizontal grab bars shall be provided across the control wall and on the back wall to a point 18 inches (455 mm) from the control wall.
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
classicT said:
Agree... but I also think of the following section that specifically indicates that a grab bar cannot be installed in any manner that would obstruct the clear floor space; thus the implication is that a grab bar could, but must be installed in a manner that does not.

609.7 Installation and Configuration​

Grab bars shall be installed in any manner that provides a gripping surface at the locations specified in this standard and does not obstruct the clear floor space. Horizontal and vertical grab bars shall be permitted to be separate bars, a single piece bar, or combination thereof.
Click to expand...

The clear space for a water closet extends all the way to the rear wall and adjacent side wall. Both the rear grab bar and the side wall grab bar overlap the clear floor space. See A117.1 figure 604.3. I don't see this as being any different.
 
I also think it is acceptable, and may add to the ability to use the shower with this configuration. IF the user had to back into the space because the seat was on the other side I could se where it might be considered an obstruction. But in this case I don't think it is. A missing vertical grab bar is an issue, and I also wonder about the configuration with the curtain since you brought it up. The user can't easily open or close the curtain without twisting, which seems like a mobility concern, but I'm not certain a curtain is an obstruction. The other showers in the facility have the opposite layout, requiring the user to back in and transfer to the seat on the back wall, and the 52" clear space is completely enclosed by the shower curtain, and in front of the user at that point. I am having trouble with the design, and how to cite it as a problem. I am leaning towards citing the curtain in the clear space, but am concerned of how that will play with the extended grab bar. I think I can cite the curtain, and if they then turn the configuration I'll worry about the "obstruction" created by the extended grab bar if they leave it. They are squeezing this thing in, but I don't see how it works. It is a single user room, so why the curtain to begin with is a question. Maybe they just remove it??
 
classicT said:
I generally agree with the assessment that you have presented.

However, care needs to be used in the application. Knee/toe clearance can be applied where the element is at the persons front. Knee/toe clearance cannot be applied along the side of the clear floor space. If a grab bar (horizontal or vertical) were provided along the side wall, along the long side of the clear floor space, that grab bar could obstruct the clear floor space and thus be a violation of Sec. 609.7 (as I posted above).
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I hear you, but in the image provided by the OP, the 30x48 space outside the shower is clearly oriented for a forward approach.
 
classicT said:
Agree... but I also think of the following section that specifically indicates that a grab bar cannot be installed in any manner that would obstruct the clear floor space; thus the implication is that a grab bar could, but must be installed in a manner that does not.

609.7 Installation and Configuration​

Grab bars shall be installed in any manner that provides a gripping surface at the locations specified in this standard and does not obstruct the clear floor space. Horizontal and vertical grab bars shall be permitted to be separate bars, a single piece bar, or combination thereof.
Click to expand...
How would you define "floor space" based on this diagram
 

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classicT said:
Ha! I wouldn't.

That diagram relates to turning space, not clear floor space.

A117.1-2017 Sec. 304 vs. 305

Terms matter!
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And the clear "floor Space" is not defined as "clear to the ceiling".
It is for maneuvering and turning....
 
mark handler said:
And the clear "floor Space" is not defined as "clear to the ceiling".
It is for maneuvering and turning....
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Agree. But one must then also be conscious of the protrusion limits of 307.2.

Now, with the protrusion limits, it only applies to the circulation path. I can see both sides of an argument that the clear floor space for approaching a fixture is or is not part of a circulation path.

2017 A117.1 - 307.2 Protrusion Limits​

Objects with leading edges more than 27 inches (685 mm) and not more than 80 inches (2030 mm) above the floor shall protrude 4 inches (100 mm) maximum horizontally into a circulation path.
Exception: Handrails shall be permitted to protrude 41/2 inches (115 mm) maximum.​

Circulation Path: An exterior or interior way of passage provided for pedestrian travel, including but not limited to, walks, hallways, courtyards, elevators, platform lifts, ramps, stairways and landings.
 
classicT said:
Agree. But one must then also be conscious of the protrusion limits of 307.2.

Now, with the protrusion limits, it only applies to the circulation path. I can see both sides of an argument that the clear floor space for approaching a fixture is or is not part of a circulation path.

2017 A117.1 - 307.2 Protrusion Limits​

Objects with leading edges more than 27 inches (685 mm) and not more than 80 inches (2030 mm) above the floor shall protrude 4 inches (100 mm) maximum horizontally into a circulation path.
Exception: Handrails shall be permitted to protrude 41/2 inches (115 mm) maximum.​

Circulation Path: An exterior or interior way of passage provided for pedestrian travel, including but not limited to, walks, hallways, courtyards, elevators, platform lifts, ramps, stairways and landings.
Click to expand...
I do agree the protrusion shall not interfere with clear circulation path. BUT,
If it does not interfere with the maneuvering (including clear circulation path) and turning....
It should be allowed
 
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