Small apartment buildings employee toilet rooms.

[Mr. Inspector]

2018 IBC, IPC
1. Are new small apartment buildings (R2) that only have one or two small hallways need to have an employee toilet room for the employee that cleans them and cuts the grass need an employee toilet room?
2. The same question for an existing building with major renovations and a change of occupancy?
3. What if they did not have employees and used a cleaning and landscaping service?
4. What if they did not have any common hallways and just exterior walls, roof, ramps, stairways, sidewalks, a lawn to be maintained and an occasional repair inside the units?
5. Same questions for a required utility sink.

 

[mark handler]

2018 IBC, IPC
1. Are new small apartment buildings (R2) that only have one or two small hallways need to have an employee toilet room for the employee that cleans them and cuts the grass need an employee toilet room?
2. The same question for an existing building with major renovations and a change of occupancy?
3. What if they did not have employees and used a cleaning and landscaping service?
4. What if they did not have any common hallways and just exterior walls, roof, ramps, stairways, sidewalks, a lawn to be maintained and an occasional repair inside the units?
5. Same questions for a required utility sink.

IMHO, No.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Are the cleaner and the lawn care service employees, or contractors?

IBC Table 2902.1 does not require toilet facilities for staff. However, the Commentary to IBC 2902.3 suggests that a toilet room is required if they are employees.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I could understand that a toilet room can be required for a large apartment building with many faculties like swimming pools. exercise rooms, large lobbies, etc. but the code does not seem to give a break for small apartment buildings that only have hallways or not and outdoor areas to maintain.

I am inspecting a 10-unit 2 story apartment house now that put in a non-accessible employee toilet room in the janitors closet that was not on the plans, so the maintenance person has someplace to go. It would need a lot of changes to make it accessible and I want to know if they could just eliminate it.

They don't know if they will have an employee do the maintenance or hire a service or just make a deal with one of the tenants to do it at this time. The definition of an employee is very mystifying. IBC does not have a definition and if you google what the legal definition of an employee you get some very complicated answers.

Another problem is that the code does not say if a employee needs to be a employee of the owner of the building. A pizza delivery person is a employee but not an employee of the building owner. I am an employee too which would mean there should be a toilet room for me everywhere I go.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Hey guys, I can use some help with this. Does everyone agree with Mark? How can they go around the code requirement with this?

 

[Gregg Harris]

Hey guys, I can use some help with this. Does everyone agree with Mark? How can they go around the code requirement with this?

I would say no also. Should not require it to be accessible, not for public access.

 

[Yikes]

I would say that if it is an offsite vendor or employee providing maintenance/gardening service, then they are not "associated with" the structure, they are associated with their offsite office structure, and they are not required to have a toilet onsite.

 

[steveray]

I say no...If they don't have an office, they don't get a toilet....If there is not an OL for the corridor or the service sink, then that is a slam dunk under code....

 

[Mr. Inspector]

OL?

 

[Yikes]

OL?

I.E., whether the employee belongs here at the apartment, or has time-traveled and really needs a loo.

 

[steveray]

OL= Occupant Load
AMOE= Accessible Means Of Egress
CPET= Common Path of Egress Travel
EERO= Emergency Escape And Resuce Opening
EA(F)AR= Exterior area for assisted rescue
SCITLTTOAO= Some crap is too long to type over and over

 

[Yikes]

LOL = Ludicrous Occupant Load

 

[ICE]

It would need a lot of changes to make it accessible and I want to know if they could just eliminate it.

So if a person confined to a wheelchair can't have a toilet, nobody can?

I once let a university add a huge bathroom to one dormitory room when the rest of the students had to use communal facilities. It was a new three story dormitory at **** University. No time to waste. No plans, No permit. Not for an employee.

Sometimes you have to grab the bull by the balls. What's the worst that could happen... you get chewed out? I've been chewed out before.... not that big a deal.

 

[Yikes]

So if a person confined to a wheelchair can't have a toilet, nobody can?

Yes, one way to not discriminate is to treat everybody equally miserably.
I remember at **** University, they once tore out an existing site stair because it dramatically shortened pedestrian travel time down a hillside in lieu of taking the long way around on the street sidewalk. Now pedestrians and wheelchairs both took the same long route. Hooray for Universal Design!

 

[ICE]

Yes, one way to not discriminate is to treat everybody equally miserably.
I remember at **** University, they once tore out an existing site stair because it dramatically shortened pedestrian travel time down a hillside in lieu of taking the long way around on the street sidewalk. Now pedestrians and wheelchairs both took the same long route. Hooray for Universal Design!

It was actually ***** University. I only inspected private schools located in the city that I was assigned to at any given time. ***** University built a lot of stuff and they bought houses that they remodeled for faculty to live in. The guy that ran the construction department hated me... of course he hated lots of people. I used to push his buttons without knowing it.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

It would need a lot of changes to make it accessible and I want to know if they could just eliminate it.

I have to deal with the "I don't wanna accommodate old folks, folks with birth defects, war vets who have had their knees blown out, folks who have had hip replacements, or anyone who ain't perfectly able-bodied, visually abled, so screw 'em" attitude from too many clients. To see it from a fellow building official is ... exceptionally displeasing.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

So if a person confined to a wheelchair can't have a toilet, nobody can?

I once let a university add a huge bathroom to one dormitory room when the rest of the students had to use communal facilities. It was a new three story dormitory at **** University. No time to waste. No plans, No permit. Not for an employee.

Sometimes you have to grab the bull by the balls. What's the worst that could happen... you get chewed out? I've been chewed out before.... not that big a deal.

Lose my job and company car, (the only car I have right now), my state inspectors license, inspection company lose its contract with the township when the state audits my accessibility inspections. The owners could get sued per ADA, handicap person could get hurt and sue owner. That's all I can think of now.

I won't compromise my job for a building owner to save money.

 

[ICE]

I won't compromise my job for a building owner to save money.

Big chicken! For one faux pas they want an execution?... tough crowd you have to satisfy. Unless you
are a habitual screw up, I don't see any of that happening over a simple toilet...it's not like you forgot the toilet...now that would be serious.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I have to deal with the "I don't wanna accommodate old folks, folks with birth defects, war vets who have had their knees blown out, folks who have had hip replacements, or anyone who ain't perfectly able-bodied, visually abled, so screw 'em" attitude from too many clients. To see it from a fellow building official is ... exceptionally displeasing.

I find it to be especially true among doctors. Which I find not only displeasing, but also astonishing. If anyone should be concerned about people with physical impairments, you'd think it should be doctors.

 

[ICE]

you'd think it should be doctors

The thought process that doctor’s use is different from the rest of humanity. Doctors see through skin like it’s not there. That is an occupational trait just as I see through drywall. The essence of what doctors do makes them a little or a lot crazy.