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Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

FyrBldgGuy,

Thanks for posting this link. Hopefully, we can find a solution to such problems.

Important Note: This is not a post against fire prevention or suppression systems!!!!

Let's see:

We have a kitchen where grease fires are likely;

We install a system that mixes water and a flammable or explosive substance, in the immediate vicinity of a potential grease fire;

We make sure that the system will activate in case of a grease fire;

And, we are surprised at the result.

Good Morning America!

This is only the tip of the iceberg for catastrophes; where chemicals and other hazardous substances are introduced into piping that is connected to our water supply systems.

As a Plumber and having been trained in cross connection and backflow prevention, and backflow protection devises; it scares the hell out me to think of what is being introduced into piping that is connected to our water supply systems. Especially in homes where products that require (backflow protection devises) inspections and maintenance in order to function with minimal failures; and, they are not and will not be required to be inspected and serviced.

The absence of public reports is not an indicator of public safety!

Uncle Bob
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

wait a minute

fire happens

sprinkler head activates ( how far away form the stove???)

so we know the sprinkler head activated, before the anti freeze came out!!!,

so we had a fire hot enough/ big enough to reach the sprinler head and sustain enough heat around the head to activate it.

Then the anti freeze came out. So what per centage of the solution in the pipe was anti freeze????

And when they say explosion are you serious??? maybe large fire??? or larger fire???

need an msds for it but :::: LEL: 2.4 UEL: 17.4.

http://www.lyncar.com/images/download/g ... ifreez.pdf
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Why are the FPEs designing systems and fire marshals approving systems with water sprinklers over cooking facilities? Every school kid is taught not to put water on a grease fire, every building I've ever built with sprinklers routs the system around cooking facilities so there is no chance of a sprinkler going off over a grease fire.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

apparently started a fire in a frying pan while cooking onions and tried to extinguish the flames when the fire sprinkler directly above activated, “discharging a solution of glycerine-based antifreeze which was ignited by the flames coming from the burning onions in the frying pan and resulting in the explosion of the glycerine solution.”
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This fire authority would have questioned the solution of choice.

Typically a glycerin based anti-freeze solution for fire sprinkler systems is not considered a flammable and typically has a flash point of @350 to 400 F and may flash if water is evaporated rapidly upon the introduction of the solution.

This could be a situation where the solution was not appropriate for the piping or the concentration was too rich and not confirmed or verified prior to final installation or replacement (if applicable in maintenance scenario).

The consultant’s report indicates the system piping was CPVC and a solution of propylene-glycol is not permitted for CPVC piping where lower discharge rates are expected. A subrogation win-fall here, atomized PG v. Fire = Low Order Explosive Environment. Allegedly another example of improper design/installation. :cry:

I would like to see the actual installation documents to verify the make of the solution; measure the system volume and verify the listed concentration levels.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

I would suspect that the sprinkler head activation had enough pressure to displace the grease in the frying pan, thus increasing the surface area of the flammable liquid, which then ignited. See the following PSA for grease fire......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Vj1IOmljE

I am willing to bet that the sprinkler system wasn't intended for a type I grease hood and was a general purpose residential sprinkler head.

Added: I wonder what would have happened without a sprinkler head to the property and other lives at stake. This is a senario that will never be known.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

In addition to my previous response...... from what I gathered, the male occupant moved the flaming pot in 180 degrees to the sink and the pendant head was above the sink.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

I believe the investigation report is in error.

First, no mention should have been made to anything other than Glycerin based antifreeze.

Second, the gas company found no evidence of a gas leak. Ok so the flex pipe to the stove did not leak. The stove was on as evidenced by the cooking onions. A flash fire occured when the occupant placed water into the burning oil. The impact of the flash fire and intial water spray may have extinguished the gas flame on the stove. There might not have been a leak but there might have been gas coming from the stove.

Third, explosion investigation evidence involves looking at the type of explosion (deflagration or detonation) and the impact of the yield. The evidence suggested in the report indicates glass blown out, and an adjacent bathroom door that may have been pushed in or out. Also the surface burning of adjacent cabinets etc is minimal. A flammable liquid vapor explosion will have an impact on the surface burning and more indepth buring of the adjacent materials. A natural gas explosion would leave little residue. If glycerin was the culprit where is the evidence?

Fourth, to get glycerin to burn in this type of an atmosphere the material has to be atomized. Vehicle fires have been reported and investigations verified where propolene-glycol and other glycols have been atomized and sprayed on the hot parts of vehicle engines. A residential sprinkler is not a good atomizer. It is designed for droplet sizes to penetrate a typical residential fire. This theory would invalidate droplet size information and testing.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

once again there has to be enough heat for the sprinkler head to activate in the first place

was this from the original fire or from the guy moving the pan of grease to the sink and turning on the water

water can extinguish grease fires.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

If all that was in the report is true, there seems to be an inherent problem with the antifreeze systems using the more dense liquid materials. Over a period of time the stratification of the two liquids will result in the lower portion being filled with a higher concentration of antifreeze compared to water. Unless the system is "stirred" that concentration could easily reach the threshold where even droplets with limited atomization create an dangerous atmosphere. Don't forget, the fire will evaporate some of the droplets in transit, increasing the amount of vapor in the air. Without careful control on the mixture, I can see a dangerous situation in a LOT of facilities in the future (can anyone say Omega Ring?). :cry:
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

but anti freeze systems have been around for a long time, so why has this not come to light before???
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

This is a very interesting question because water has been sucessfully used over commercial cooking for a long time and antifreeze is also not new, although I am not sure how many antifreeze systems have actually activated over a fire. Stay tuned :eek:
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Interesting case. A few thoughts, for what they are worth:

The report states that the stove was electric, so presumably there was gas for hot water and/or heat. IMHO, trusting the gas company to tell you whether their pipe and equipment did not fail is naive in the extreme. Maybe the investigator followed up, maybe not. My opinion is based on personal experience: gas from a cracked pipe in the street difused into a building and exploded when a service person lit a pilot light, and the gas company denied it all the way through court, even though the pipe was eventually produced in court and shown to be damaged. BTW, the explosion blew glass windows a similar distance to what the investigator reports, which no conclusions should be drawn from, I'm just saying. Several other natural gas explosions in houses that I have seen show a similar type of force (I don't know that there was natural gas service there or not).

Glycerine and propylene glycol are both Class IIIB combustible liquids with very low vapor pressures. There is no report in any literature (other than the two fire investigations) that I could locate that indicates that either liquid in any form is liable to detonate. A volume of very finely aerosolized glycogen introduced under pressure (pre-heated, that is) to a very hot atmosphere might do the trick, I suppose, but I will have to see it to believe it.

Like I said, interesting case. I intend to keep looking for data on the anti-freeze. Stay tuned (or not).
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

This overwhelming expansion of pseudoscience that is being backed by the government to produce materials and methods that are harmful to the safety, health and welfare of citizens and threaten the structural integrity of dwellings and their inhabitants ; and selling them for profit and forcing by law, an innocent, trusting society to accept it; is absolutely frightning.

You cannot argue with government controlled pseudoscience. I know that we may think we are being educated; but, we are being indoctrinated; and those who fight against it will be eliminated from the process.

The only thing a Building Official, Fire Marshal, Plan Reviewer, and/or Inspector can do is; attempt to assure compliance with applicable codes requirements; without being removed from their job.

Which brings me back to "The less you know; the easier your job is."

:cry:

Uncle Bob
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Flash point of Ethylene Glycol: 232 degrees F, Flammable Limit 3.2%, Auto Ignition 400 degrees F.

Hard to achieve in a kitchen?
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Third, explosion investigation evidence involves looking at the type of explosion (deflagration or detonation) and the impact of the yield. The evidence suggested in the report indicates glass blown out, and an adjacent bathroom door that may have been pushed in or out. Also the surface burning of adjacent cabinets etc is minimal. A flammable liquid vapor explosion will have an impact on the surface burning and more indepth buring of the adjacent materials. A natural gas explosion would leave little residue. If glycerin was the culprit where is the evidence?Fourth, to get glycerin to burn in this type of an atmosphere the material has to be atomized. Vehicle fires have been reported and investigations verified where propolene-glycol and other glycols have been atomized and sprayed on the hot parts of vehicle engines. A residential sprinkler is not a good atomizer. It is designed for droplet sizes to penetrate a typical residential fire.
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The information contained in the “consultant’s” report indicates the potential low-order explosion. With all explosions there is a positive and negative blast front and in some cases the evidence of the negative front is not always present/observed. The blast front is affected by barriers to the pressure waves within the vessel/apartment. It is very possible for cabinets to exhibit light surface burning. Excessive concentration of propylene glycol could become flammable and the potential ignition and subsequent pressure can atomize a flammable liquid. [Reference NFPA 921]

If I’m not mistaken via the quick read of the consultant’s report, the report suspects propylene glycol and hence my desire to see what was actually in the CPVC piping, concentration levels and the statement of a potential subrogation win-fall.

BTW.........in any investigation I conduct I have to eliminate all other potential/suspected causes including always requesting and witnessing all gas line air-testing in the area of origin or areas contributing to the area of origin. Also, looks like the men/women in ties stepped in since the article in the OP has been removed from their site.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Coug Dad said:
That is not the type of antifreeze allowed in a sprinkler system
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Propylene Glycol is worse:

Flashpoint: 210F

Flammable Limit: 2.6%

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Propyle ... ol-9927239

*I believe that the article originally said "ethylene glycol" because I am pretty certain that I did a copy and paste to search for the MSDS.

BTW, the article has moved off the RSS page and now can be found here:

http://www.sierrasun.com/article/201002 ... ofile=1051
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

My mistake in regards to the stove question. But again gas was present in the building.

The blast wave could not have been a detonation, it could have been a high speed deflagration.

Decomposing the glycerin could have resulted in Acrolein, which has the properties necessary for a high speed deflagration. However, the amount of glycerin needed to decompose to produce the blast would be hard to imagine.

What other materials were present in the kitchen? Any aersols? How about some spray coating for cooking, or how about some W#40? Was there a jug of cooking oil next to the stove?

The report read like an theory waiting for a case.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

FYI: I have submitted this issue to the UL Fire Council as an agenda item. It will be interesting to see what UL staff research determines. I'll report back what is discussed after the Council meets in the beginning of May.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

It would have been nice if the guy included a floor plan showing relation of sink to stove to sprinkler head.

still go back to what first set off the sprinkler head.

and then from there you have what ever solution coming out of the piping, and if you have been in a room with a head going off, you do get wet!!

so to go from from solution coming out of pipe to big boom ??????
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Bob in 2002:

Gee, it says put in x units of this stuff.

I don't want frozen pipes so I'll just double it.

Bob in 2003:

Gee, it says put in x units of this stuff.

I don't want frozen pipes so I'll just double it.

In case I forgot to last year.

Jake in 2004:

Gee, it says put in x units of this stuff.

I don't want frozen pipes so I'll just triple it.

In case that idiot Bob didn't take care of it last year.

2005-2010: etc.

I once had a car with a broken gas gauge. Every day at the start of my commute I would put in the amount I thought it would use. After a few weeks, gas was spilling out of the filler when I tried to put more in.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

cda said:
It would have been nice if the guy included a floor plan showing relation of sink to stove to sprinkler head.still go back to what first set off the sprinkler head.

and then from there you have what ever solution coming out of the piping, and if you have been in a room with a head going off, you do get wet!!

so to go from from solution coming out of pipe to big boom ??????
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If the anti-freeze flashed first, adding water would be bad.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for DeathWhat I don't understand is that all 13D layouts I see put sprinkler heads right over the stove, see below. When this subject came up before here some posted information on water atomizing sprinkler heads designed to provide a fine mist, why wasn't that requirement put into the 13D requirements?sprinkler layout.jpg[/attachment:20iyhv47]

View attachment 81

View attachment 81

/monthly_2010_06/572953b58125b_sprinklerlayout.jpg.666fb72970f8eac8fb6cd61d0d4345ce.jpg
 
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