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Sprinklers and elevator for remodel

RickH

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2016
Messages
12
Location
Indiana
I'm planning for the remodeling of a 3 story + basement. Only 2 of the floors will be remodeled and will be used for primary usage (the street-level and 2nd story). Both stories are currently A-2 and will be used as A-2 after the remodel. The 2nd story was previously used as a banquet hall and function hall and will be repurposed for live music. The building has neither an elevator nor a sprinkler system.

The plan is to connect the two floors (currently they are not connected) and then to remodel both floors. I assume that would trigger getting an elevator. Would the 20% rule go into affect with this also?

I assume this would not trigger a sprinkler unless I wanted a larger max occupancy than what was previously used for the banquet room?

Our code uses IBC 2012.
 
The 20% rule is always in effect....Can't speak to the elevator or sprinkler yet...How many square feet per floor? Are you the owner or designer or contractor?
 
Since the 2nd floor is > 3000 ft.² and will have different activities available than the 1st floor will ADA requirements state that an elevator is required for access to the 2nd floor.
 
The IEBC and a good design professional will be a tremendous asset to you...Start looking. What state are you in? Your OL will probably be going up as you are going from tables and chairs (15net) to chairs or standing (7 or 5)....You need alot of questions answered before you get into this unless money is not a concern...
 
The IEBC and a good design professional will be a tremendous asset to you...Start looking. What state are you in?
I'm in Indiana. I didn't think that IEBC was applicable since my area uses IBC.
 
Since the 2nd floor is > 3000 ft.² and will have different activities available than the 1st floor will ADA requirements state that an elevator is required for access to the 2nd floor.
That's my assumption but I'm planning on only ~$80K for the remodel and an elevator will start at ~$60K so does the 20% rule imply that I don't have to install an elevator?
 
20% is building code...ADA is a whole different animal.....You need a good designer.....I imagine Indiana allows IEBC, but a local will know better..
 
I'm in Indiana. I didn't think that IEBC was applicable since my area uses IBC.
2012 IBC

3401.6 Alternative compliance.

Work performed in accordance with the International Existing Building Code shall be deemed to comply with the provisions of this chapter.

The IEBC is referenced in the building code just like any other referenced code or standard and does not have to be specifically adopted by an AHJ for a designer to choose to use it. The BO can not force a designer to use the IEBC or which one of the 3 methods within the IEBC. The IEBC is about designers choice.
 
Thanks for the feedback so far. Here are my findings using 2012 IBC (and IEBC).

My work area will be less than 50% but I'll be reconfiguring some of the space so it will fall under Level 2. It is apparent that building would not need to be sprinklered and at most the cost to be ADA compliant would be 20% extra of the remodel budget. That 20% rule means that we won't have to have an elevator if the overall budget is low enough (i.e. $50k project + an extra $10k for ADA compliance). Lastly, there are not any means of egress requirements that need to be met (since there is only 1 tenant within the work area).

Does this this appear reasonable? Code below:



IBC 2012:

3401.6 Alternative compliance.

Work performed in accordance with the International Existing Building Code shall be deemed to comply with the provisions of this chapter.



IEBC 2012:

Alterations - Level 2



SECTION 804 FIRE PROTECTION

804.2 Automatic sprinkler systems.

Automatic sprinkler systems shall be provided in accordance with the requirements of Sections 804.2.1 through 804.2.5.

804.2.2 Groups A, B, E, F-1, H, I, M, R-1, R-2, R-4, S-1 and S-2.

In buildings with occupancies in Groups A, B, E, F-1, H, I, M, R-1, R-2, R-4, S-1 and S-2, work areas that have exits or corridors shared by more than one tenant or that have exits or corridors serving an occupant load greater than 30 shall be provided with automatic sprinkler protection where all of the following conditions occur: 1. The work area is required to be provided with automatic sprinkler protection in accordance with the International Building Code as applicable to new construction; and 2. The work area exceeds 50 percent of the floor area.

804.2.4 Other required automatic sprinkler systems.

In buildings and areas listed in Table 903.2.11.6 of the International Building Code, work areas that have exits or corridors shared by more than one tenant or that have exits or corridors serving an occupant load greater than 30 shall be provided with an automatic sprinkler system under the following conditions: 1. The work area is required to be provided with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with the International Building Code applicable to new construction; and 2. The building has sufficient municipal water supply for design of an automatic sprinkler system available to the floor without installation of a new fire pump.





IBC 2012:

[F] TABLE 903.2.11.6 ADDITIONAL REQUIRED SUPPRESSION SYSTEMS

[TABLE=cellpadding: 2, cellspacing: 0]

[TR]

[TD=width: 39%]SECTION[/TD]

[TD=width: 61%]SUBJECT[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]402.10[/TD]

[TD]Covered and open mall buildings[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]403.3[/TD]

[TD]High-rise buildings[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]404.3[/TD]

[TD]Atriums[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]405.3[/TD]

[TD]Underground structures[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]407.6[/TD]

[TD]Group I-2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]410.7[/TD]

[TD]Stages[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]411.4[/TD]

[TD]Special amusement buildings[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]412.4.6, 412.4.6.1, 412.6.5[/TD]

[TD]Aircraft hangars[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]415.10.11[/TD]

[TD]Group H-5 HPM exhaust ducts[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]416.5[/TD]

[TD]Flammable finishes[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]417.4[/TD]

[TD]Drying rooms[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]507[/TD]

[TD]Unlimited area buildings[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]509.4[/TD]

[TD]Incidental uses[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]1028.6.2.3[/TD]

[TD]Smoke-protected assembly seating[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]IFC[/TD]

[TD]Sprinkler system requirements as set forth in Section 903.2.11.6 of the International Fire Code[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]





[F] 410.7 Automatic sprinkler system.

Stages shall be equipped with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1. Sprinklers shall be installed under the roof and gridiron and under all catwalks and galleries over the stage. Sprinklers shall be installed in dressing rooms, performer lounges, shops and storerooms accessory to such stages.

Exceptions: 1. Sprinklers are not required under stage areas less than 4 feet (1219 mm) in clear height that are utilized exclusively for storage of tables and chairs, provided the concealed space is separated from the adjacent spaces by not Type X gypsum board not less than 5/8-inch (15.9 mm) in thickness. 2. Sprinklers are not required for stages 1,000 square feet (93 m2) or less in area and 50 feet (15 240 mm) or less in height where curtains, scenery or other combustible hangings are not retractable vertically. Combustible hangings shall be limited to a single main curtain, borders, legs and a single backdrop. 3. Sprinklers are not required within portable orchestra enclosures on stages.



IEBC 2012:

SECTION 806 ACCESSIBILITY

806.1 General.

A building, facility, or element that is altered shall comply with this section and Section 705.

SECTION 705 ACCESSIBILITY

705.2 Alterations affecting an area containing a primary function.

Where an alteration affects the accessibility to a, or contains an area of, primary function, the route to the primary function area shall be accessible. The accessible route to the primary function area shall include toilet facilities or drinking fountains serving the area of primary function.

Exceptions: 1. The costs of providing the accessible route are not required to exceed 20 percent of the costs of the alterations affecting the area of primary function.





IEBC 2012:

SECTION 805 MEANS OF EGRESS

805.1 Scope.

The requirements of this section shall be limited to work areas that include exits or corridors shared by more than one tenant within the work area in which Level 2 alterations are being performed, and where specified they shall apply throughout the floor on which the work areas are located or otherwise beyond the work area.



 
What is unreasonable is to deny access to potentially paying customers, you do want all the customers you can get don't you?

Not everyone uses a wheelchair, some use walkers, canes crutches, etc.

I one stop elevator is not that expensive.
 
Fire Sprinkler, fire alarm and elevator required. Your changing the use, increasing occupant loading.
 
Fire Sprinkler' date=' fire alarm and elevator required. Your changing the use, increasing occupant loading.[/quote']What if I change the use but keep the occupant load the same? For instance the previous load was for that room 193, what if I keep the load at 193?

The room was previously used as a function/banquet room but I'd like to have music (and certainly sometimes banquets).
 
What is unreasonable is to deny access to potentially paying customers, you do want all the customers you can get don't you?Not everyone uses a wheelchair, some use walkers, canes crutches, etc.

I one stop elevator is not that expensive.
There is currently a stair lift that was previously used for this but it was only used ~8 times in 15 years. That one paying customer a year will not pay off that elevator over it's life span.
 
I one stop elevator is not that expensive.

Only $100K or so, once you add in shaft construction, electrical power, etc. to the raw elevator cost.
 
Remove it and "deny" access to customers?

You didn't indicate if it was installed under permit and licensed?

As a publicly accessible business you must comply with access or risk being sued, no vets in your town?
 
Since the 2nd floor is > 3000 ft.² and will have different activities available than the 1st floor will ADA requirements state that an elevator is required for access to the 2nd floor.
Since the building will only be using 2 stories then an elevator is exempted per the ADA. Am I misinterpreting this?

Per 2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design

36.404 Alterations: Elevator exemption.

(a) This section does not require the installation of an elevator in an altered facility that is less than three stories or has less than 3,000 square feet per story, except with respect to any facility that houses a shopping center, a shopping mall, the professional office of a health care provider, a terminal, depot, or other station used for specified public transportation, or an airport passenger terminal.
 
Ah, but you initially said the building is "3" stories. And isn't the 2nd floor a separate use/tenant from the 1st and 3rd floors?

As to your proposing to delete the stair lift, you haven't responded to prior questions?
 
Ah, but you initially said the building is "3" stories. And isn't the 2nd floor a separate use/tenant from the 1st and 3rd floors?As to your proposing to delete the stair lift, you haven't responded to prior questions?
The building is 3 stories + a basement but only the 1st and 2nd stories will be accessible to the customers. The only areas are for storage.
 
Remove it and "deny" access to customers?You didn't indicate if it was installed under permit and licensed?

As a publicly accessible business you must comply with access or risk being sued, no vets in your town?
I'm not sure about the circumstances of it getting installed. I'm not sure about the licensing either. That all happened 20+ years ago. I felt this was a moot point if I was going to remove it. It's my understanding that it doesn't qualify as an acceptable elevator so it would be best to just remove it.
 
Is your AHJ agreeable to signing off your scope of work as compliant with the accessibility provisions of your code? Does your attorney agree too?

How does your lease read as to indemnifying the building owner from any and all improvements made by you related to your use of the space?
 
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