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structure or structures

A

Apurva Dave

Registered User
Joined
Feb 22, 2018
Messages
78
Location
Washington dc
I have new building Not high rise consists of four floors and parking garage.
The first floor is residential and assembly mixed while second to fourth floors are all residential units.

All Four floors are above the parking garage and they are construction III and the parking garage is construction II.
So their is 3 hours rating firewall between roof of parking and above floor that is construction III. Their is also firewall between parking floor roof to the foundation.

Our building department says parking and the four floors are separate buildings per IBC 2018 code

Would the IBC 2018 based on definition of structure consider parking garage and above floors as structure (singular) or structures (plural)?
 
Maybe this will help:

510.2 Horizontal building separation allowance. A building
shall be considered as separate and distinct buildings for
the purpose of determining area limitations, continuity of fire
walls, limitation of number of stories and type of construction
where all of the following conditions are met:
1. The buildings are separated with a horizontal assembly
having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 3 hours.
2. The building below the horizontal assembly is of Type
IA construction.
3. Shaft, stairway, ramp and escalator enclosures through
the horizontal assembly shall have not less than a 2-
hour fire-resistance rating with opening protectives in
accordance with Section 716.5.

It does not say for the purpose of the NEC....
 
As I said in your other post,

I don't think the NEC cares what the IBC says in regards to separate buildings. I would say it is a single building/stricture for NEC purposes. JMHO

I tried the argument with the Colorado State Inspector Supervisor years ago the townhouses were separate "structures", so for the purposes of 1-4 family dwelling inspectors, a group of 6 townhouses, were six separate structures, not a 6-plex.

Didn't fly for a second.
 
If you ask a structural engineer it is one structure.

Why can it not be a single building with multiple occupancies?
 
steveray said:
Maybe this will help:

510.2 Horizontal building separation allowance. A building
shall be considered as separate and distinct buildings for
the purpose of determining area limitations, continuity of fire
walls, limitation of number of stories and type of construction
where all of the following conditions are met:
1. The buildings are separated with a horizontal assembly
having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 3 hours.
2. The building below the horizontal assembly is of Type
IA construction.
3. Shaft, stairway, ramp and escalator enclosures through
the horizontal assembly shall have not less than a 2-
hour fire-resistance rating with opening protectives in
accordance with Section 716.5.

It does not say for the purpose of the NEC....
Click to expand...
Its weird. I cannot attach a picture. How do I do that? The building has two parts East and West. Building is built on a slope so East part of the parking floor is above ground and meets West First floor.
West underground part of parking has horizontal firewall between it and first floor above ground. The East above ground parking has hirizontal fire wall with its first floor.
Whats important is that where East parking above ground meets the West first floor their is a vertical firewall all the way to foundation. Their is also vestibule between them to go from East parking to West First floor

Would not the vertical parts be separate buildings for purposes to NEC 2017 section 225?
 
Apurva Dave said:
Its weird. I cannot attach a picture. How do I do that? The building has two parts East and West. Building is built on a slope so East part of the parking floor is above ground and meets West First floor.
West underground part of parking has horizontal firewall between it and first floor above ground. The East above ground parking has hirizontal fire wall with its first floor.
Whats important is that where East parking above ground meets the West first floor their is a vertical firewall all the way to foundation. Their is also vestibule between them to go from East parking to West First floor

Would not the vertical parts be separate buildings for purposes to NEC 2017 section 225?
Click to expand...
Same scenario as above but separate questions: would the vertical part above be considered separate buildings per INC 2018? Also would vertical parts be considered firewalls even though their is vestibule? Vestibule has same firewall rating
 
Apurva Dave said:
Its weird. I cannot attach a picture. How do I do that? The building has two parts East and West. Building is built on a slope so East part of the parking floor is above ground and meets West First floor.
West underground part of parking has horizontal firewall between it and first floor above ground. The East above ground parking has hirizontal fire wall with its first floor.
Whats important is that where East parking above ground meets the West first floor their is a vertical firewall all the way to foundation. Their is also vestibule between them to go from East parking to West First floor

Would not the vertical parts be separate buildings for purposes to NEC 2017 section 225?
Click to expand...
Apurva Dave said:
Same scenario as above but separate questions: would the vertical part above be considered separate buildings per INC 2018? Also would vertical parts be considered firewalls even though their is vestibule? Vestibule has same firewall rating
Click to expand...
in above post second one from top its IBC 2018 not INC 2018
 
If you are going from one construction type to another, in a stacked configuration, then yes, they are separate buildings.

510.2 Horizontal Building Separation Allowance
A building shall be considered as separate and distinct buildings for the purpose of determining area limitations, continuity of fire walls, limitation of number of stories and type of construction where all of the following conditions are met:
  1. The buildings are separated with a horizontal assembly having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 3 hours where vertical offsets are provided as part of a horizontal assembly, the vertical offset and the structure supporting the vertical offset shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than 3 hours.
  2. The building below the horizontal assembly is of Type IA construction.

  3. Shaft, stairway, ramp and escalator enclosures through the horizontal assembly shall have not less than a 2-hour fire-resistance rating with opening protectives in accordance with Section 716.


    Exception: Where the enclosure walls below the horizontal assembly have not less than a 3-hour fire-resistance rating with opening protectives in accordance with Section 716, the enclosure walls extending above the horizontal assembly shall be permitted to have a 1-hour fire-resistance rating, provided:
    1. The building above the horizontal assembly is not required to be of Type I construction;
    2. The enclosure connects fewer than four stories; and
    3. The enclosure opening protectives above the horizontal assembly have a fire protection rating of not less than 1 hour.
    4. Interior exit stairways located within the Type IA building are permitted to be of combustible materials where both of the following requirements are met:

      4.1. The building above the Type IA building is of Type III, IV, or V construction.
      4.2. The stairway located in the Type IA building is enclosed by 3-hour fire-resistance-rated construction with opening protectives in accordance with Section 716.
  4. The building or buildings above the horizontal assembly shall be permitted to have multiple Group A occupancy uses, each with an occupant load of less than 300, or Group B, Group I-1, Condition 2 licensed care facilities, M, R, or S occupancies.
  5. The building below the horizontal assembly shall be protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1, and shall be permitted to be any occupancy allowed by this code except Group H.
  6. The maximum building height in feet (mm) shall not exceed the limits set forth in Section 504.3 for the building having the smaller allowable height as measured from the grade plane. Group I-1, Condition 2 licensed care facilities shall be permitted to use the values for maximum height in feet for Group R-2 occupancies.
 
steveray said:
For those considerations and only those, they are separate buildings....NOT the NEC.....
Click to expand...
Correct... "shall be considered as separate and distinct buildings for the purpose of determining area limitations, continuity of fire walls, limitation of number of stories and type of construction".
 
classicT said:
If you are going from one construction type to another, in a stacked configuration, then yes, they are separate buildings.

510.2 Horizontal Building Separation Allowance
A building shall be considered as separate and distinct buildings for the purpose of determining area limitations, continuity of fire walls, limitation of number of stories and type of construction where all of the following conditions are met:
  1. The buildings are separated with a horizontal assembly having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 3 hours where vertical offsets are provided as part of a horizontal assembly, the vertical offset and the structure supporting the vertical offset shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than 3 hours.
  2. The building below the horizontal assembly is of Type IA construction
Click to expand...
classicT said:
  1. Shaft, stairway, ramp and escalator enclosures through the horizontal assembly shall have not less than a 2-hour fire-resistance rating with opening protectives in accordance with Section 716.


    Exception: Where the enclosure walls below the horizontal assembly have not less than a 3-hour fire-resistance rating with opening protectives in accordance with Section 716, the enclosure walls extending above the horizontal assembly shall be permitted to have a 1-hour fire-resistance rating, provided:
    1. The building above the horizontal assembly is not required to be of Type I construction;
    2. The enclosure connects fewer than four stories; and
    3. The enclosure opening protectives above the horizontal assembly have a fire protection rating of not less than 1 hour.
    4. Interior exit stairways located within the Type IA building are permitted to be of combustible materials where both of the following requirements are met:

      4.1. The building above the Type IA building is of Type III, IV, or V construction.
      4.2. The stairway located in the Type IA building is enclosed by 3-hour fire-resistance-rated construction with opening protectives in accordance with Section 716.
    5. The building or buildings above the horizontal assembly shall be permitted to have multiple Group A occupancy uses, each with an occupant load of less than 300, or Group B, Group I-1, Condition 2 licensed care facilities, M, R, or S occupancies.
    6. The building below the horizontal assembly shall be protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1, and shall be permitted to be any occupancy allowed by this code except Group H.
    7. The maximum building height in feet (mm) shall not exceed the limits set forth in Section 504.3 for the building having the smaller allowable height as measured from the grade plane. Group I-1, Condition 2 licensed care facilities shall be permitted to use the values for maximum height in feet for Group R-2 occupancies.
Click to expand...

In the above bolded and italics what does vertical offsets mean? Do they mean like vertical wall or something else?
 
fatboy said:
As I said in your other post,

I don't think the NEC cares what the IBC says in regards to separate buildings. I would say it is a single building/stricture for NEC purposes. JMHO

I tried the argument with the Colorado State Inspector Supervisor years ago the townhouses were separate "structures", so for the purposes of 1-4 family dwelling inspectors, a group of 6 townhouses, were six separate structures, not a 6-plex.

Didn't fly for a second.
Click to expand...
Which part didn't fly? Townhouses are separate buildings under IRC and NEC. You could have 20 and they're still each individual structures.
 
Apurva Dave said:
Would IRC apply to my install or IBC? How does one know?
Click to expand...


For ICC books and NFPA books, I start with the "Scope"

If it says in the Scope, what you are looking at, or trying to do, or occupancy type applies, than normally that book applies.
 
If they are separate buildings does this mean that there will be two building permits?

But this would leave the top building without a foundation.
 
Mark K said:
If they are separate buildings does this mean that there will be two building permits?

But this would leave the top building without a foundation.
Click to expand...

I think it is one building for permit processing.
 
redeyedfly said:
Which part didn't fly? Townhouses are separate buildings under IRC and NEC. You could have 20 and they're still each individual structures.
Click to expand...

According to the State Electrical Inspector Supervisor, anything over 4 attached, made it multi-family

So with my State of Colorado 1-4 family dwelling electrical inspector certification did not qualify my to inspect the electrical, as it was over 4-family, not four, or five, or eight separate buildings.

Had to be a State licensed electrician, even a 2-year residential wireman license would qualify.

I didn't agree, but.....arguing with the State?
 
Semantics, its always in the semantics. Comes down to Safety and health considerations vs structural separateness.
 
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