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Sub Panel in kitchen

Keep in mind the NEC (110.26) has requirements for WORKING space and DEDICATED space for equipment. People tend to be fixated on the working space requirement and forget that dedicated equipment space is also required and is for the most part even more restrictive than working space alone.

That being said, does anyone know of a code section / listing violation that would prohibit a panelboard from being installed face-down in a ceiling and/or face up on a countertop and/or floor? Again, assuming all requirements of 110.26 have been met...
 
I agree with pwood and Jar, as long as the working space required in 110.26(A) is provided then the panel can be right next to the sink.

Chris
 
Don't multi-task and do the dishes while working on the panel box! Agree with the others, 110.26(A)

2003 IRC allowed plumbing below the electrical equipment, the 2006 does not allow plumbing below or above, something to check IRC2006 E3305.1

SEE CLEARANCES figure E335.1 footnotes.

pc1
 
Robert Ellenberg said:
Bryan, Can you elaborate on dedicated equipment space?
Click to expand...
110.26(F) Dedicated Equipment Space. All switchboards, panelboards, distribution boards, and motor control centers shall be located in dedicated spaces and protected from damage.Exception: Control equipment that by its very nature or because of other rules of the Code must be adjacent to or within sight of its operating machinery shall be permitted in those locations.

(1) Indoor. Indoor installations shall comply with 110.26(F)(1)(a) through (F)(1)(d).

(a) Dedicated Electrical Space. The space equal to the width and depth of the equipment and extending from the floor to a height of 1.8 m (6 ft) above the equipment or to the structural ceiling, whichever is lower, shall be dedicated to the electrical installation. No piping, ducts, leak protection apparatus, or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation shall be located in this zone.

Exception: Suspended ceilings with removable panels shall be permitted within the 1.8-m (6-ft) zone.

(b) Foreign Systems. The area above the dedicated space required by 110.26(F)(1)(a) shall be permitted to contain foreign systems, provided protection is installed to avoid damage to the electrical equipment from condensation, leaks, or breaks in such foreign systems.

© Sprinkler Protection. Sprinkler protection shall be permitted for the dedicated space where the piping complies with this section.

(d) Suspended Ceilings. A dropped, suspended, or similar ceiling that does not add strength to the building structure shall not be considered a structural ceiling.

(2) Outdoor. Outdoor electrical equipment shall be installed in suitable enclosures and shall be protected from accidental contact by unauthorized personnel, or by vehicular traffic, or by accidental spillage or leakage from piping systems. The working clearance space shall include the zone described in 110.26(A). No architectural appurtenance or other equipment shall be located in this zone.
Click to expand...
..........
 
My point is this. It can be argued that working space is NEVER required. It is a judgment call as to what is "likely to require" anything. It goes even further to stipulate, "likely to require while ENERGIZED."

One could argue that a particular piece of equipment in a case specific installation will never likely require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance WHILE ENERGIZED.

However, dedicated equipment space is required regardless, energized or not, worked on or not.

See what I mean...
 
Thank You all I new about the working space. Home owner moved sink closer I was just trying to make sure there was no t something more resrictive.

David
 
* * *

Bryan asked:

That being said, does anyone know of a code section / listing violationthat would prohibit a panelboard from being installed face-down in a ceiling

and/or face up on a countertop and/or floor? Again, assuming all

requirements of 110.26 have been met..."
Click to expand...
Article 240.24(A) [ `08 NEC ] requires the OPD's to be installed in and

"readily accessible" to the occupants - typically not more than 6' - 7" above

the floor. Ceilings are typically higher than 6' - 7" above the floor and

would require assistance to access the OPD's.

As long as the panel board was installed to be "readily accessible", ...in an

approved location [ i.e. - non-hazardous, ...non-wet / damp, ADA compliant,

or horizontally in the floor of the Means Of Egress path, etc. ], AND is

approved by the manufacturer for such, then installing in a horizontal

position would be o.k.

* * *
 
north star said:
* * *As long as the panel board was installed to be "readily accessible", ...in an

approved location [ i.e. - non-hazardous, ...non-wet / damp, ADA compliant,
Click to expand...
Here we go again, where does it state a load center or panelboard needs to be ADA compliant?
 
Francis Vineyard said:
Not yet, it's in the new ICC/ANSI A117.1 2009 edition
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I hope not because it would be very hard to keep an I-line panelboard that is 6' tall within the reach areas in ANSI 117.1

Chris
 
* * *

Chris K. asked:

Here we go again, where does it state a load center or panelboard needs to be ADA compliant?
Click to expand...
Fair question!From the 2006 IRC, Ch. 34 - DEFINITIONS:

ACCESSIBLE. (As applied to equipment.) Admitting close approach; not guarded by

locked doors, elevation or other effective means.

ACCESSIBLE, READILY. Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or

inspections, without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over

or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, etc.

I'm thinking that panel boards installed at a height that is not "accessible" or

"readily accessible" is not compliant, ...especially to someone who [ might be ]

restricted a wheel chair.

If someone is wheelchair bound, are you, as the "electrician-of-record",

going to install the panel board higher than their [ capable ] reach range?

* * *
 
Mule, thank you. I have been lurking for years most questions grt answered with out having to ask, but you have read between the derailments like this one. no question about accessibilty, just distance from kitchen sink. Again thank you all for your answers.

David
 
north star said:
* * *Chris K. asked:

Fair question!

From the 2006 IRC, Ch. 34 - DEFINITIONS:

ACCESSIBLE. (As applied to equipment.) Admitting close approach; not guarded by

locked doors, elevation or other effective means.

ACCESSIBLE, READILY. Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or

inspections, without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over

or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, etc.

I'm thinking that panel boards installed at a height that is not "accessible" or

"readily accessible" is not compliant, ...especially to someone who [ might be ]

restricted a wheel chair.

If someone is wheelchair bound, are you, as the "electrician-of-record",

going to install the panel board higher than their [ capable ] reach range?

* * *
Click to expand...
240.24(A) requires overcurrent devices to be installed in a readily accessible location and shall be installed so that the center grip of the operating handle is not more than 6' 7" above the floor.

This requirement does not meet ANSI 117.1 Accessibility requirements for reach range.

So you think that we must install panelboards so that they are not higher than 48" from the floor?

Chris
 
* * *

Chris asked:

240.24(A) requires overcurrent devices to be installed in a readily accessible

location and shall be installed so that the center grip of the operating handle is not more

than 6' 7" above the floor.

This requirement does not meet ANSI 117.1 Accessibility requirements for reach range.

So you think that we must install panelboards so that they are not higher than 48" from

the floor?

Chris
Click to expand...
Why doesn't this meet the Accessibility requirements of ANSI 117.1?To me, it says that the OPD's shall be installed not more than 6' - 7" above the floor.

It doesn't say that the OPD's have to be installed at 6' - 7". They can be installed at

a lower height to be accessible & readily accessible to the occupant(s). Also, if an

occupant of a residence is confined / restricted to a wheelchair, I'm going to go "out-of-

my-way" to assist them in any way that I can. I believe that they already have enough

to contend with, without an electrical panel board / OPD's being un-accessible.

* * *
 
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