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"That's F*&'n Bullsh&%" He said

jar546

jar546

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2014 NEC applies, here is the scenario.

Inspection for a temp service for a commercial construction site.

Temp Service with #6 copper THWN to panel with a 60A breaker (used as main) along with a 30A and two 20A breakers supplying 4 GFCI receptacles. The wire to the temp mast was THHN black, red and another black with white tape to signify neutral (strike one), there was just one ground rod installed (strike 2), upon further inspection there was heavy oxidation on all connection and when I gave a slight tug on the service conductors from the mast to the 60A breaker, they just pulled right out they were so loose (strike 3). Some other wires on the neutral bar also pulled right off from being so loose (see strike 3). No electrician on site, just the GC who gave the news to. His first response was: "I never heard of 2 ground rods, is that new?" He then proceeded to call the electrician to tell him he failed the inspection. When he broke the news and told him he was standing here with the inspector, the electrician's lound response was "That's fu^&'n bulls&^$t!" at which point I stated that I am not here to argue and to please call for a reinspection when you are ready.

So the NEC violations were:
250.53(A)(2)
110.14
200.6

Would anyone have added anything else or done something different?

I forgot to check for 408.36(D) when I was there so I hope that is not an issue on reinspection.
 
A temporary service can blow up the same as a permanent service. And temporary service can be there for a long time. The last fast food restaurant took eight months to build. The aic was 65k.

Trust me on this, the pushback is tremendous. I’m pretty sure that few inspectors pay attention to this. But it is important. The Edison planner was incredulous.... he said that nobody enforces this but me. I told him that if one explodes, everybody will.
 
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See exception under 250.53 (2) Depending on resistance to earth of 25 ohms.

Here the POCO sets the temporary electric and their install drawing only shows one electrode. with that said, I've never gave it much thought to require two GE's on a temporary meter set up.

If required (depending on resistance to earth of 25 ohms) will you allow the second GE to be > 6ft and daisy chained?
 
Pcinspector1 said:
See exception under 250.53 (2) Depending on resistance to earth of 25 ohms.

Here the POCO sets the temporary electric and their install drawing only shows one electrode. with that said, I've never gave it much thought to require two GE's on a temporary meter set up.

If required (depending on resistance to earth of 25 ohms) will you allow the second GE to be > 6ft and daisy chained?
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That's how we do it here, I've seen one ground rod at one location and two required a block away, it's none of the business of the building inspector, totally the business of the utility inspector.
 
Pcinspector1 said:
See exception under 250.53 (2) Depending on resistance to earth of 25 ohms.

Here the POCO sets the temporary electric and their install drawing only shows one electrode. with that said, I've never gave it much thought to require two GE's on a temporary meter set up.

If required (depending on resistance to earth of 25 ohms) will you allow the second GE to be > 6ft and daisy chained?
Click to expand...

When was the last time an electrician had the equipment necessary and took the time to do the ground rod resistance testing? It is a lot cheaper to do the 2nd ground rod. I can also tell you that many times a single ground rod won't give you the 25 Ohms you need depending on soil conditions.
 
conarb said:
it's none of the business of the building inspector, totally the business of the utility inspector.
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I agree it might not be the AHJ inspectors business we work with the utility companies and if they have requirements above ours that is what we educate the contractors about and only approve inspections that will meet the utility providers requirements. Example the gas company has a higher minimum pressure than the code requires and the electric co op requires two ground rods minimum 8 ft apart
 
The POCO here said the temps are rigged to the yard box at the curb. Service wires are in flex conduit that enters their transformer or pedestal. Out of my hands.
 
  • JAR said:
    He then proceeded to call the electrician to tell him he failed the inspection. When he broke the news and told him he was standing here with the inspector, the electrician's lound response was "That's fu^&'n bulls&^$t!" at which point I stated that I am not here to argue and to please call for a reinspection when you are ready.
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For all we know the electrician is right, he could have contacted the utility and/or had the soils analyzed and only one driven ground is necessary. The last home I built was 4,000 feet and $4 million dollars, only one driven ground was required, on the other hand at the meeting with PG&E where their chart called for one driven ground they required larger conductors running thorough the property at a cost of $33,000.
 
The figures that conarb throws out for construction cost raise my uni-brow. I'm sure the ICC BVD SF construction cost chart is a joke in his area of the country.
 
The POCO in every county, state and municipality that I work in will not hook up power to a building or temp pole without an inspection by a state licensed electrical inspector. In PA for example, PPL has their own REMSI standard that has to be met in addition to the NEC. We as inspectors have to agree that the installation meets the NEC and the REMSI standards for power to be applied. The contractor pulls a permit for the temp power setup or it is in the initial permit submissions for the project and all inspections are under the state law that adopted the NEC. In Florida is it pretty much the same thing as PPL has their own requirements in addition to the NEC. A temp setup is not for the POCO or under POCO control, they are just hooking up a customer that needs temp power and all applicable codes are enforced. I am not sure how this is done in other states or how familiar everyone else is with the processes in their jurisdiction but where I have inspected, it is all pretty much the same.
 
Edison jurisdiction stops at the weather-head. Edison will energize damned near anything as long as an AHJ inspector releases it. I know that because I've seen that.
 
Our utility is PG&E and they provide a Green Book that has several hundred pages of their rules and regulations, within that book is rule 3.2.6:

3.2.6. Inspecting and Approving Overhead and Underground Services. An applicant must contact the local PG&E project coordinator to arrange for a field representative to inspect and approve the applicant-furnished and installed service equipment, as well as any other mandatory components required for an underground service installation.
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During the pre-construction meeting the PG&E field representative has maps showing soils conditions throughout their service area showing the number of driven rods required.

Tiger, doesn't Edison have something like a Green Book like PG&E has with hundreds of pages showing requisite clearances, weatherhead and underground service locations, as well as gas meter locations, etc.?
 
Conarb, the world does not revolve around northern California. Here are a few examples:

PA
PPL EU requires that customer's new, changed, or upgraded electric service entrance facilities be inspected and approved by individuals who are registered or certified by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of Labor and Industry. This requirement applies to temporary and permanent electric service entrance facilities.

FL
When a Customer's electrical installation has been completed, it shall be inspected by the local electrical inspector to ensure compliance with the National Electrical Code and such local rules that may apply. FPL cannot energize new service installations until such inspection has been made, and until formal notice from the inspecting authority has been received by FPL.

PG&E
TEMPORARY CONSTRUCTION POWER
There's usually construction power available if we have existing facilities with enough capacity next to or on your construction site. Your PG&E representative will let you know the costs for construction power, which vary from site to site. If construction power is available, we may be able to install it within three to five working days. You'll need to pay these costs, and the city or county building department will need to inspect and approve your temporary meter panel before we can install the temporary service and meter.

So you see Conarb, you are cherry picking only what you want people to see. PG&E clearly requires that the local AHJ inspect the electrical installation before they can apply power. You live in the spin zone.
 
Of course the local inspector inspects and releases the panel, but the PG&E rules in the Green Book must be followed, and only the PG&E has the maps that tell how many ground rods must be installed, I can't believe that Edison and other utilities nationwide don't have something similar to the Green Book. None of this excuses you from forcing a contractor to install an extra ground rod just because you like to.
 
Oh yeah and Black Hills Energy that serves Colorado not only states on their website that they "DO NOT PERFORM INSPECTIONS" and like all others require that the local AHJ inspect and approve the installation before they apply power but they also state the following:

Requirements of the NEC®, NESC®, or the Public Authority which are more stringent than the requirements of this document will take precedence.
 
conarb said:
Of course the local inspector inspects and releases the panel, but the PG&E rules in the Green Book must be followed, and only the PG&E has the maps that tell how many ground rods must be installed, I can't believe that Edison and other utilities nationwide don't have something similar to the Green Book. None of this excuses you from forcing a contractor to install an extra ground rod just because you like to.
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Not because we like to but because they have to in order to meet the NEC if they can't prove 25 Ohms or less to earth. POCOs all state that the more stringent local codes apply.
 
jar546 said:
Not because we like to but because they have to in order to meet the NEC if they can't prove 25 Ohms or less to earth. POCOs all state that the more stringent local codes apply.
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Jeff:

What's the original electrical contractor doing, is he going to get POCO maps to try and prove the additional rod isn't necessary or is he going to cave in and install it?
 
conarb said:
Jeff:

What's the original electrical contractor doing, is he going to get POCO maps to try and prove the additional rod isn't necessary or is he going to cave in and install it?
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See my previous post, even PG&E require local enforcement before they will apply power. If the contractor wants to prove he has less than 25ohms with 1 rod, he has that option. Not sure why you are making a big deal out of something that has been routine for several NEC code cycles. You are now arguing just for the sake of arguing when you have no legitimate factual argument. The contractor has lots of options for a choice of grounding electrode. If they choose to use a ground rod then they have to prove less than 25 ohms or add a second rod. Simple for most.
 
I don't see your answer as to what they are going to do, in your original post you said:

No electrician on site, just the GC who gave the news to. His first response was: "I never heard of 2 ground rods, is that new?" He then proceeded to call the electrician to tell him he failed the inspection. When he broke the news and told him he was standing here with the inspector, the electrician's lound response was "That's fu^&'n bulls&^$t!"
Click to expand...

It appears that neither the general nor the electrical contractors ever heard of two ground rods, that tells me that your local soils probably don't require them or they would have heard of them, or maybe you're the only inspector that ever required them. The fact is that the AHJs don't have charts showing the soils conditions and PG&E and others do, so why install additional rods if the utility says you don't need them? If the AHJs want to start testing the soils so their inspectors know how many rods are necessary all right, but why should then when the utilities have this information? If your utilities don't have this information then maybe the AHJs should invest in some testing equipment rather than force contractors to spend extra money.
 
I look at it just the opposite, if the contractor can't prove that he has 25 ohms are less with a single ground rod that he should install 2. As a rule, at least around here, inspectors don't actually perform tests, they just perform inspections and may review the results of tests done by others.
 
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