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TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Syarn,

Thanks; and the flooring is also made out of OSB (wood chips and glue) material in most new homes.

Uncle Bob
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

neat and not to slanted report

thanks
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

I think we all agree that both lightweight joists and roof trusses should be outlawed, in the meantime many communities are passing labeling requirements so firefighters don't have to enter such homes, and the architects,engineers, and builders who specify or use them should be held liable for any injuries or deaths. Sprinklers are not the answer, I Joists collapse when wet as well as when exposed to fire, the manufacturers instructions say they can't even be placed on the ground prior to installation for fear they will get wet and fail.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

No "we all" do not agree with banning engineered building material!!
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Min Max said:
No "we all" do not agree with banning engineered building material!!
Click to expand...
Well let me rephrase it, those who care about building safe homes agree that lightweight engineered building materials should be banned.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

conarb wrote:

Well let me rephrase it, those who care about building safe homes agree that lightweight engineered building materials should be banned.
Click to expand...
Thats similar to the argument that if you want to save lives you’ll install sprinklers. I think the products need more testing prior to installing them in homes.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Just build everything out of concrete and steel and don't worry about anything!
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Since this is a RFC thread........ Fire doesn't care what the structure is built out of ;) Regarding CB homes, I've seen some pretty bad fires in the pre 70's homes built in south Florida. As long as there are combustible contents, ventilation and ignition sources (regardless of action) the potential for fire exists.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

I used them in my house.

That being said, all of the foam in the furniture, the 'plastic' carpet, etc. out-gassing would probably do us in before the floor would collapse.

I worry more about the chemicals in my house hold furniture and electronics than the floor system.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Just like any other product out there. If its not handled or installed properly there's going to be problems.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

conarb said:
Well let me rephrase it, those who care about building safe homes agree that lightweight engineered building materials should be banned.
Click to expand...
I disagree. "Safe", "lightweight", "engineered", and "building material" can all be good features, and can even be features of the same object.

Perhaps trusses and joists should be rated for temperatures above 150°F, though.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

conarb said:
Min Max said:
No "we all" do not agree with banning engineered building material!!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Well let me rephrase it, those who care about building safe homes agree that lightweight engineered building materials should be banned.

No. We don't.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

No building material can substitute for planning and training.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Still wrong conarb. I appreciate your concern for lack of skilled workers in the construction industry but the monotonous dismissive comments about new construction materials only reveal your lack of knowledge of those products.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

I have had several years of continuous training from online courses and onsite field instruction, on engineered wood products, and installation; and ConArb is the one of the few people I would go to for advise and information on engineered wood products.

The problem here is not ConArb's continuous attempts to enlighten Building Officials, Inspectors, and Fire Service personnel; but, it is their inability to listen and learn from someone who has more years of experience and more knowledge on the subject than the combined training, experience and knowledge of his critics.

ConArb has posted numerous information backed up with fact ladened links that support his position; on the old ICC Bulletin Board; and without reading the information; people spouted off about how he didn't know what he was talking about.

The assumption here; is that these materials are here to stay; and there is nothing that can be done, accept to post warnings to Fire Fighters. If you have to post warnings to Fire Fighters; that should be a clue that something is wrong. What is the future; posting warnings to homeowners that the products their home is made from, is materials that will make their family sick and possibly kill them?

Another assumption is that builders have the right to build "affordable" McMansions; and the only way they can build them is with materials that are harmful to the occupants and Fire Fighters. Only, when we tell the builders "NO!"; will this "it's here and we have to accept it" attitude change.

There is free and inexpensive training available for Building Officials and Inspectors; but, instead of taking advantage and increasing their knowledge; they demean one of the few people here who really know what they are talking about.

I have posted the following links before, in the hope that a few would take advantage of the training available (some free);

http://ttw.sbcindustry.com/inspector.php

and,

(scroll down to "WoodUniversity.Org" and "WallBracing.Org.")

http://www.apawood.org/

If many of ya'll will start listening to ConArb; and start learning; instead of attempting to berate him; then you might just learn something!

However, I doubt that this will happen; since some of you have watched the video in the OP's link; and still continue to ignore what you have seen.

Uncle Bob
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Incognito:

I guarantee my work for life, I used roof trusses, and I've had to go back on several homes 30 years later and rebuild the roofs because of the gang-nail plates popping off, I've posted before about them coming apart even in Australia. BTW, trusses I used in the 50s had plywood gussets glued and nailed, those homes are doing fine, I've checked them. In the 60s gang-nail plates took over and all of those are having problems. I've never used I Joists, just looking at the crap tells you that they are pure junk, I'd never stoop to using crap like that. I've never used OSB, yet I've testified against a lot of contractors who have after it swelled up and cracked their stucco.

Now we're forcing people to put garbage into their home and cars.



AOL said:
It should come as no surprise that carmakers are working to reduce their carbon footprint. What will surprise you is the manner in which they're doing it: Plastic detergent bottles, old milk carton and faded blue jeans are just some of ingredients that are already going into the production of your car today. The recycling of older materials will only increase.¹
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In this multimillion dollar addition built by one of my men the green rater made them use OSB to "clean up the forest floor" (the city has a green ordinance), it is so stiff it didn't pull tight to the studs after she shot it on with his nail guns, the inspectors hate the crap so they walked around with business cards trying to slip them between the OSB and the studs, where they could get them in he had to walk with them and hand nail.

It's one thing for poor people to buy cheaply built homes if that's all they can afford, but it's quite another to make wealthy people live in homes and drive cars made from recycled crap, it smacks of egalitarianism and socialism. The word is getting out, soon no-one will want a new home, or will want to fix up a home if they are forced to use crap.

¹ http://autos.aol.com/article/recycled-t ... -materials
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

A 2x4 stud wall will lose it's strength in 15 minutes.

I guess we should require heavy timber.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Anyone remember Asbestos? Lead-based paint?

In their respective days these were the materials of choice, now we know better.

You can still obtain either one for limited applications (if you think Bridge crews stopped using lead-based paint, ask a bridge worker). Engineered wood products will likely always be around.

When NYS first recognized their potential, we required EWP I-Joists to be protected (as in GWB). But then we made the switch to modified I-codes....

Properly manufactured, properly handled and installed, and properly protected these materials can be as safe as dimensional lumber.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

I have crawled through houses on fire, both standard dimensional lumber and TJI. As a fire fighter and code official I have formed the opinion that knowledge is key to understanding building collapse. As a Fire Protection Engineer I can run a computer model to determine how long a structure can withstand the energy induced by building contents.

The basic problem is:

The time it takes to discover a fire... 3-5 minutes for a individual awake and aware.

Time to call 911 from another location (because a smart person would exit the home)... another 3-5 minutes.

Time to dispatch in a modern facility with enhanced 911 service... 2-4 minutes.

Response time from fire station to home... 4-15 minutes.

Time on arrival until water on fire... 4-10 minutes.

Time from fire ignition to flashover of the first room... 2-4 minutes.

Time from first room flashover to engulfment of home... 4-10 minutes.

Total time from ignition of fire to water on fire... 16-39 minutes.

Total time from ignition to engulfment... 6-14 minutes.

Where do Single family homes have code required fire rated structural features?

Every fire fighter that enters a house fire should have thought about probable building collapse before entering.

If you need a sign... you are working without the knowledge necessary to survive in the fire service. How many signs should be posted on every building?

If you want to save lives, buildings, property then require fire suppression systems.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

What Uncle Bob said, plus:

I am glad my firefighting days are behind me, and that I fought fire in an area built before I-joists.

Judging from some of the responses in this and other topics on this board, there are those that even with irrefutable evidence still don't admit to a hazard. They wouldn't know a hazard if it slapped them in the face. They think the codes are a document designed to handcuff the building official instead of the history lesson they provide. If you don't learn from history you will be repeating it.

I'm not for banning the product. I'm for hazard mitigation, you know, the reason for codes in the first place. First you have to recognize the hazard. Then you have to come up with solutions. If you can't admit there is a problem with unprotected I-joists in a fire, you were probably on the OJ jury.

Let's "work the problem, people." (Apollo 13)
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

FyrBldgGuy said:
I have crawled through houses on fire, both standard dimensional lumber and TJI. As a fire fighter and code official I have formed the opinion that knowledge is key to understanding building collapse. As a Fire Protection Engineer I can run a computer model to determine how long a structure can withstand the energy induced by building contents.The basic problem is:

The time it takes to discover a fire... 3-5 minutes for a individual awake and aware.

Time to call 911 from another location (because a smart person would exit the home)... another 3-5 minutes.

Time to dispatch in a modern facility with enhanced 911 service... 2-4 minutes.

Response time from fire station to home... 4-15 minutes.

Time on arrival until water on fire... 4-10 minutes.

Time from fire ignition to flashover of the first room... 2-4 minutes.

Time from first room flashover to engulfment of home... 4-10 minutes.

Total time from ignition of fire to water on fire... 16-39 minutes.

Total time from ignition to engulfment... 6-14 minutes.

Where do Single family homes have code required fire rated structural features?

Every fire fighter that enters a house fire should have thought about probable building collapse before entering.

If you need a sign... you are working without the knowledge necessary to survive in the fire service. How many signs should be posted on every building?

If you want to save lives, buildings, property then require fire suppression systems.
Click to expand...
All valid points. The problem I have is I need time to make the rescue if possible. If we are not going to build residential with the structure providing time for rescue then we need to do something else...
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

I have always thought it funny how people will rail against engineered wood products, specifically OSB, then proceed to promote plywood which is an engineered wood product. To me its just history repeating itself---the old-timer blasting the use of a new product just like years and years ago when plywood was the new product. No one likes to talk about how plywood delaminates when soaked repeatedly or sometimes only once. Old school folks will always identify supposedly horrific problems with new products or techniques.
 
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