• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Toilet room count seems excessive

M

millerjx

Registered User
Joined
Feb 14, 2022
Messages
12
Location
Michigan
I am working on a Roller Rink. At the concept design level.

It's 130'x430' fully sprinkled roller rink with a separated banquet hall. I have a program and code analysis that generates over 2k occupants. It is an A-2 Assembly occupancy. I am coming up with 14 male and 26 female toilets, that's a lot. I think more than I have ever seen even at the stadiums, airport or highway rest stop.

Can I share my program and calculations, looking for a silly math error or a code reduction I am not aware of.
Thanks in advance.
john
 
For the rink area, what did you calculate the OL as?

As you are not a Sawhorse member (you should definitely consider it though), you will have to share a link to your output files. If you join, you can post images directly.
 
Ok.. taking a look at what you have, what stands out to me is the OL for the "Circulation" area. Now, without seeing the plan, I am somewhat guessing... but something appears off when I am seeing that the OL of the circulation area exceeds that of the skate floor.

1650308235428.png
 
Agreed. Circulation is what remains when I subtract all the other spaces from the total building size, a pre-engineered metal building, 130'x430'
Rink has fixed seating around it. Banquet at the top of the picture.
 

Attachments

  • Roller rink.png
    Roller rink.png
    194.2 KB · Views: 4
Fixed seating should be calculated per IBC Section 1004.6 (below). This may help drop the OL for the circulation area quire a bit.

1004.6 Fixed Seating
For areas having fixed seats and aisles, the occupant load shall be determined by the number of fixed seats installed therein. The occupant load for areas in which fixed seating is not installed, such as waiting spaces, shall be determined in accordance with Section 1004.5 and added to the number of fixed seats.

The occupant load of wheelchair spaces and the associated companion seat shall be based on one occupant for each wheelchair space and one occupant for the associated companion seat provided in accordance with Section 1108.2.3.

For areas having fixed seating without dividing arms, the occupant load shall be not less than the number of seats based on one person for each 18 inches (457 mm) of seating length.

The occupant load of seating booths shall be based on one person for each 24 inches (610 mm) of booth seat length measured at the backrest of the seating booth.
 
classicT said:
Fixed seating should be calculated per IBC Section 1004.6 (below). This may help drop the OL for the circulation area quire a bit.

1004.6 Fixed Seating
For areas having fixed seats and aisles, the occupant load shall be determined by the number of fixed seats installed therein. The occupant load for areas in which fixed seating is not installed, such as waiting spaces, shall be determined in accordance with Section 1004.5 and added to the number of fixed seats.

The occupant load of wheelchair spaces and the associated companion seat shall be based on one occupant for each wheelchair space and one occupant for the associated companion seat provided in accordance with Section 1108.2.3.

For areas having fixed seating without dividing arms, the occupant load shall be not less than the number of seats based on one person for each 18 inches (457 mm) of seating length.

The occupant load of seating booths shall be based on one person for each 24 inches (610 mm) of booth seat length measured at the backrest of the seating booth.
Click to expand...
It reduced some. Less circulation area. There are 102 tables with 8' of bench ( 4-person) each.

1650311868074.png
 
Your occupant calculation includes 237 people in the restrooms and another 27 in the Banquet restrooms. I know certain demographics sometimes have a habit of congregating in restrooms but net area specifically excludes them (at least in the Florida Building Code, which is based on IBC, does):

FLOOR AREA, NET. The actual occupied area not including unoccupied accessory areas such as corridors, stairways, ramps, toilet rooms, mechanical rooms and closets.

But... I believe your outdoor dining needs to be part of the restroom calc. Don't have time to check that at the moment so could be wrong.
 
brokenkeys said:
Your occupant calculation includes 237 people in the restrooms and another 27 in the Banquet restrooms. I know certain demographics sometimes have a habit of congregating in restrooms but net area specifically excludes them (at least in the Florida Building Code, which is based on IBC, does):

FLOOR AREA, NET. The actual occupied area not including unoccupied accessory areas such as corridors, stairways, ramps, toilet rooms, mechanical rooms and closets.

But... I believe your outdoor dining needs to be part of the restroom calc. Don't have time to check that at the moment so could be wrong.
Click to expand...
Brokenkeys, thank you for your reply. I have separate facilities for the outdoors.
I agree with you at least in principle that it is unlikely that people congregate everywhere at the same time, including toilet rooms and mechanical spaces. However, my read of the IBC table I am using has gross area identified for the deck area around the rink. I want to be wrong. In electrical design there is a way to factor down the total added load to a likely working load (not all appliances are turned on all at the same time). Is there anything like that for occupancy?
1650401213274.png
 
What I was alluding to is you calculated the restrooms at 1/15 as if they are assembly spaces, however they are not. Remove the 264 people in the restrooms from your calc and your fixture count will be closer to what you are looking for.

The deck and rink may be gross but that doesn't make every space gross. Similarly, your building use may be assembly but that doesn't mean every space is to be calculated at 1/15.

The outdoor spaces should be included in your area calc's too and if you have separate facilities for those spaces then they should be included in your fixture, assuming they're within travel distances, etc.
 
Brokenkeys, thank you for the help.
I zeroed out occupancy for the toilet rooms. The vestibule is large, so kids can wait for their ride out of the rain. It is outside the building proper, inside a glass enclosure. Can that be zeroed out? or reduced?
Also, there are activities that are staff only, all of the retail is behind the counter with staff waiting on clients that come to the counter. Virtual reality is a 20'x20' area with one-two players in a headset.
Thanks in advance for the help
Occupancy
EntryQuantitySizeArea (sf)NotesAreaRateRateOccupancy
Entry Vestibule
1​
1,2001,2001,2001/ 5 sf
0.20​
240
Check-in
1​
2002002001/ 15 sf
0.07​
13
Office
1​
2002002001/ 100 sf
0.01​
2
Retail-
Skate Rental
1​
1,4001,4001,4001/ 60 sf
0.02​
23
Skate Buddy Rental
1​
1001001001/ 60 sf
0.02​
2
Pro Shop
1​
4004004001/ 60 sf
0.02​
7
Roller Blade/ Ice Skate Rental
1​
2002002001/ 15 sf
0.07​
13
-
Activity-
Skate Floor
1​
12,80012,80012,8001/ 50 sf
0.02​
256
Fixed Seating
1​
5,7205,7201024/ table
4.00​
408
Circulation
1​
6,0306,0306,0301/ 15 sf
0.07​
402
Party Room
5​
4002,0002,0001/ 15 sf
0.07​
133
Laser Tag
1​
2,0002,0002,0001/ 15 sf
0.07​
133
Mini-Golf
1​
2,0002,0002,0001/ 15 sf
0.07​
133
Virtual Reality
1​
1,2001,2001,2001/ 15 sf
0.07​
80
-
Food Service-
Kitchen Storage
1​
4004004001/ 300 sf
0.00​
1
Snack Bar
1​
1,2001,2002- Pass-through counter inside and out with roll-up door, see equipment list. No open frying1,2001/ 300 sf
0.00​
4
Support
Mechanical/ Electrical
1​
1,2001,2001,2001/ 300 sf
0.00​
4
Janitor Closet
1​
200200Service sink, Janitor Carts, Floor scrubber, Stacked Washer/ Dryer200-
0.00​
-
Toiletrooms - M & W 14 stall ea.27281,4561,456-
0.00​
-
Toilerrooms - Unisex/ family121251,5001,500-
0.00​
-
Toiletrooms - M& W outdoor2200400400-
0.00​
-
Toilerrooms - Outdoor Unisex/ family2100200200-
0.00​
-
Gross Area of Roller Rink
42006​
sf3,556sf toiletrm
1855.67​
Entry Vestibule
1​
1001001001/ 5 sf
0.20​
20
Kitchen
1​
300300Pass-through w/ security shutter to dining3001/ 300 sf
0.00​
1
Toilets
2​
200400400-
0.00​
-
Coats
1​
100100100-
0.00​
-
Storage
1​
1,0001,0001,0001/ 300 sf
0.00​
3
Dining Room
1​
4,0004,0004,0001/ 15 sf
0.07​
267
Gross Area of Banquet Facility5,900sf291
47,906
 
Michigan code appears to have a factor of 1 per 15 for waiting areas, which would reduce the occupant load in the vestibule. 1 per 15 seems excessive for mini golf. Maybe the building official would accept an assumed count per hole or 1 per 50. It seems like 1 per 15 would be excessive for laser tag. Maybe that’s a candidate for 1 per 50.
 
millerjx said:
all of the retail is behind the counter with staff waiting on clients that come to the counter
Click to expand...
You could call that storage to determine OL. Think of an auto parts store that the customers can't access. I am sure you have very narrow aisles in that area and therefore is only accessed by the number of employee's working the counter..

1018.3 Aisles in Groups B and M.
In Group B and M occupancies, the minimum clear aisle width shall be determined by Section 1005.1 for the occupant load served, but shall be not less than that required for corridors by Section 1020.2.

Exception: Nonpublic aisles serving less than 50 people and not required to be accessible by Chapter 11 need not exceed 28 inches (711 mm) in width.
 
Jay Smith said:
Michigan code appears to have a factor of 1 per 15 for waiting areas, which would reduce the occupant load in the vestibule. 1 per 15 seems excessive for mini golf. Maybe the building official would accept an assumed count per hole or 1 per 50. It seems like 1 per 15 would be excessive for laser tag. Maybe that’s a candidate for 1 per 50.
Click to expand...
Thank you, I'll reduce the waiting area, and then take to the Building Official to negotiate based on actual use for mini golf/ laser tag.
Thanks for the help
 
mtlogcabin said:
You could call that storage to determine OL. Think of an auto parts store that the customers can't access. I am sure you have very narrow aisles in that area and therefore is only accessed by the number of employee's working the counter..

1018.3 Aisles in Groups B and M.
In Group B and M occupancies, the minimum clear aisle width shall be determined by Section 1005.1 for the occupant load served, but shall be not less than that required for corridors by Section 1020.2.

Exception: Nonpublic aisles serving less than 50 people and not required to be accessible by Chapter 11 need not exceed 28 inches (711 mm) in width.
Click to expand...
I follow, thank you
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top