Top 4 floors, Fire Stair, Type IA building- Can we close off the top 4 floors

[miguele3]

A tenant is taking the top 4 floors of a 12 story building. They want to use the fire stair as interstitial stair. They want to put the doors on hold open and lock off the 8th to 9th floor access. Assuming I can make the clearances work, is this legal? The access to this door will release in a life-safety situation or a power-outage and will not require any special knowledge. There will be a panic bar on the egress direction downward.

 

[cda]

They want to add a door some how in the stairs?? So as to not let people past the 8th floor ????

 

[mark handler]

You can restrict access from the stairs to the suites, Yes, But you must provide access to the roof, for maintenance and fire personnel.

So you will not be able to "lock-off" all the stairs

Where? What city? What code?

 

[Coug Dad]

Welcome to the board.

What do you mean by interstitial stair?

 

[miguele3]

Coug Dad- Interstitial is basically a tenant who puts in their own stair to move floor to floor, thanks for the welcome.

Mark- It's California, CBC. I don't see anything in chapter 10 that says we can't.

CDA- They have the top 4 floors, so yes they don't see why anyone except maintenance or fire would want to get through. I was thinking we could provide a knox box (sp) and certainly maintenance would have a key.

Thanks guys, this is a weird one.

 

[permitguy]

Is the stairwell pressurized in alarm?

 

[miguele3]

Probably, not sure. I was thinking of doing a cage kind of door so air would go right through.

 

[mark handler]

So you are proposing to put in a lockout door in the stairwell…

Don’t forget door clearances, areas of refuse and roof access

 

[mark handler]

Where? What city? What code?

Are you Licensed?

 

[cda]

Well you can do two floors open

So do they want to install a new stairway or us existing???

 

[AegisFPE]

My understanding is that one of the 2 existing vertical exit enclosures will have the doors to the top 4 floors retrofit/replaced with automatic-closing assemblies (1022.3,715.4.8) to create an internal circulation space among a common tenant; a security grill door would be added to the intermediate landing below the lowest of these 4 floors.

A couple potential discussion points could be:

(1) A strict interpretation finding that the revisions to the exit enclosure could cause it to be used for some other purpose than as a means of egress (1022.1) or tenant may add wall hangings or furnishings to the enclosure (1022.1, 806.1).

(2) The security grill may be a specific challenge. Would you suggest that because the security grill serves only 4 floors, that it could be installed in accordance with Exception 3 to 1008.1.9.10 (which would seem to take precedence over 1008.1.9.8 for this application involving an interior stairway)? Can the egress width be maintained with this door?

 

[miguele3]

Aegis, your assumptions are correct. The tenant will not be hanging any wall hangings or furnishings, although what a tenant does after we are gone is another story. We may place some non-combustible metal in the stair and retrofit railings with metal to deal with the 4" gap issue.Regarding 1008.1.9.8 and 1008.1.9.10. I think I can maintain the egress width, but I don't think I can comply with the 12" and 18" on the push and pull side of the door and I would not have the 5' at the swing side of the door. Is there a way to attach a PDF to this site?

 

[miguele3]

CDA- it's an existing 12 story building. No existing area of refuge. Even the handrails don't have the 4" gap which we will retrofit.

Mark- it is in Walnut Creek, CA and the CBC.

 

[Examiner]

EXIT STAIRS for the floors above and below. Give the employees cards for the card readers or access codes to communicate between their floors via the stairs. Others from other floors cannot get into their space during non-emergency hours. Doors to stairs would have to unlock during fire mode so if a stair is blocked the occupants can get out of the stair and cross over to another stair.

 

[miguele3]

Examiner- if only it were that easy my life would be better. But the client wants the doors open on hold-opens tied to life-safety and releasing during power outages. That's why I need a security door installed mid landing.

 

[cda]

you want to put a door in the stairwell on a mid landing?????

 

[cda]

if you hit additional options at the bottom you can upload pictures and pdf

 

[texasbo]

I'm visualizing this, and I don't like what I see. Yes, CDA, he's talking about a door/grill, inside the exit enclosure, that would be placed at a landing, to keep people from going up the stair, into the part of the enclosure serving the top 4 floors.

Handicapped issues aside, I don't know how this could be reconciled with door swings adjacent to risers and landings.

But let's just play along, and say the landing was HUGE, and a door could be placed such that it was adequately separated from stair risers, and did not reduce a required dimension of the landing.

Edit: Everything I wrote earlier has been deleted past this point, replaced with:

Unless this building complies with the High Rise provisions of 403, you can't do this. Section 1008.1.8.7, Stairway Doors, prohibits these doors from being locked on stair side.

Comply with 403, or abandon all hope of this ill-conceived plan.

 

[north star]

* * * *

Some type of roll up, metal security grille might work,

...custom installation.

* * * *

 

[miguele3]

We have worked out the clearances by blowing out and creating a huge stair landing. There are two issues one is can we install a locked door tied to life safety? Can fire stair doors be put on hold opens tied to life safety?

 

[AegisFPE]

Stair doors on hold-opens should be allowed per 715.4.8, as referenced by 1022.3. However, there may be an issue with the listing of the existing doors if they are modified to become automatic- instead of self-closing, so new listed assemblies may be required.

"Locked door tied to life safety" is another issue. Consider also providing for egress based on alternate method approach similar to San Francisco elevator lobby provision: SFFD 2.10 Checklist including "An approved listed, momentary mushroom-shaped palm button."

 

[peach]

yes you can.. assuming the door releases on alarm (mag locks) and stays unlocked but closed for pressurization, for fire access.

 

[miguele3]

Thanks a lot Aegis

 

[miguele3]

Thanks Peach.