Un-friggen-BELIEVABLE!!

[MtnArch]

I have a sandwich shop TI down in the LA area that I was told by the landlord early on that they didn't have natural gas available to the suite. Since we didn't (and the tenant didn't want to use gas anyway) we designed the HVAC and water heating to be via electric appliances. The plan check came back questioning the use of electrical and requested a change to gas. I responded back that, per the landlord, there wasn't gas available; the plan checker then stated that he KNEW there was natural gas there and that we MUST change our systems to gas. Another query to the landlord elicited an "Oops ... we mis-spoke - there IS gas available." Well, no matter - there isn't anything (that I've ever found) in the California energy codes that demand one over the other when both are available.

I asked the permit expeditor (who is running the back check through) to ask the plan checker for the code citation requiring this. If it's code, okay - we'll change it. If it's a personal feeling, no - we won't change it.

The permit expeditor just sent me the code citation that the plan checker gave them ... from the **Residential** section of the standards!!! I can't believe the audacity (stupidity?) of the plan checker trying to pull something as lame as this off on me!

Wow ... all I can say right now is "Wow!"

 

[mark handler]

He/She is correct This are some examples in the 2013 CA Building Energy Efficiency Standards, that requires gas over Electric

2013 Building Energy Efficiency Standards

2013 Nonresidential Compliance Manual

Electric-Resistance Heating §140.4(g), §141.0

An electric-resistance heating system serves an entire building that:

a. Is not a high-rise residential or hotel/motel building; and

b. Has a conditioned floor area no greater than 5,000 ft²; and

c. Has no mechanical cooling; and

d. Is in an area where natural gas is not currently available and an extension

of a natural gas system is impractical, as determined by the natural gas

utility.

4.9.4 Requirements for Alterations

Replacements of electric heat or electric

resistance space heaters are allowed where natural gas is not available.

 

[MtnArch]

I would have been fine if they had pulled a correct code citation. As I said in my OP, if it's code I have no problem with it - I'll learn and move on (and not make the same mistake twice). If they couldn't pull the code section right away I'd prefer that they would have responded as such - "I can't tell you right off the top of my head, but let me look for it and I'll forward it to you (later/tomorrow/when I find it/etc.)."

Thanks for pointing out those sections Mark, though they do bring a couple more questions to mind (which I'll pass on for the time being).

 

[conarb]

Alan:

What about an electric heat pump for both air conditioning and heat? I've had chemically sensitive people who couldn't live with gas in a home and I've done heat pumps, there is no electric resistance heating that way.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Well, no matter - there isn't anything (that I've ever found) in the California energy codes that demand one over the other when both are available.

The scary part is there seems to be a code section that does just that.

UNBELIEVABLE Next thing you know conarb will have to give up his Dodge for a Prius

Government has no business requiring the use of one type of energy supplier over another.

 

[MtnArch]

Well, the plan checker told me this morning that I had to show that the electric water heater we've specified was compliant per the flow chart in the 2013 Nonresidential Compliance Manual (page 4-106). After looking at the flow chart, calling the water heater manufacturer, calling the California Energy Commission hotline (who has not returned the call), I looked at the description of the section FOR that flow chart.

(wait for it ...)

Yup ... RESIDENTIAL HIGH-RISE, HOTELS AND MOTELS!!! I guess the plan checker just doesn't seem to get that this is a single-story, retail commercial MALL - even though he works in the same city, and even visited the site (in his zeal to emphasize that he was right)!

If he doesn't sign off this time I'm going to have to go over his head to the CBO - this is just flat out wrong, and it's obvious he has no clue what he's doing.

 

[mark handler]

Alan

The new energy code is not easy for any of us, on both sides of the counter.

I have taken several classes and am still having issues with the requirements.

Choose your battles, you may meet that plan checker on your next project. Don't pi$$ him/her off....

 

[MASSDRIVER]

you may meet that plan checker on your next project. Don't pi$$ him/her off....

PUBLIC SERVANT

That's supposedly WHY there are enumerated codes, just so some dick with an agenda, especially a personal one, can't railroad someone over his or her wants or feelings.

See the "I ain't marrying them two homsexyules" clerk for reference.

Brent.

 

[ICE]

PUBLIC SERVANTSee the "I ain't marrying them two homsexyules" clerk for reference.

Brent.

Sometimes we have to draw a line in the sand. Nothing personal mind you.

I am nobody's servant.

 

[conarb]

Sometimes we have to draw a line in the sand. Nothing personal mind you. And that Public Servant label is pure crap. I don't show up to serve these people. They get the strangest attitude when they figure that I am a servant. They can treat me terrible because I work for the government and can't get a real job. The best that I can do is be a servant?

You guys started it with all this "Protect and serve" crap, everybody knows that you are just there for an easy job and can retire in a few years, the papers are full of stories of "public servants" retiring at 50 with enormous pensions and other benefits, all of our cities are in trouble, I say flat out welsh on the pensions.

Emanuel finds himself poised to sharply raise property taxes to cover a major increase in police and fire pension contributions following a December 2010 measure approved by lawmakers and then-Gov. Pat Quinn. The law followed a series of Tribune stories that detailed how woefully underfunded police and fire pensions were in Chicago and many suburbs.The mayor has known the pension hit was coming since before he took office. This year, Emanuel got the Democrat-controlled House and Senate to approve a bill that reset the pension payment schedule to give him more breathing room. The city would still have to come up with hundreds of millions of dollars, just not quite as much as quickly as the 2010 law required.¹

¹ http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-rahm-emanuel-property-tax-increase-budget-met-0923-20150922-story.html

 

[MtnArch]

Choose your battles, you may meet that plan checker on your next project. Don't pi$$ him/her off....

I have always tried my best to show plan checkers the utmost respect in my encounters with them - partly for this very reason and partly because I realize that most are simply doing their best to do a difficult job, sometimes having to interface with very unpleasant people on this side of the counter. What has irked me with this plan checker is his arrogance and VERY apparent ignorance of the code. If I am going to give you (the plan checker) an reason why what I've shown on my plans is compliant, it will be grounded in a relevant code section - NOT a residential code section that I'm using for a restaurant!

 

[mark handler]

I have always tried my best to show plan checkers the utmost respect in my encounters with them - partly for this very reason and partly because I realize that most are simply doing their best to do a difficult job, sometimes having to interface with very unpleasant people on this side of the counter. What has irked me with this plan checker is his arrogance and VERY apparent ignorance of the code. If I am going to give you (the plan checker) an reason why what I've shown on my plans is compliant, it will be grounded in a relevant code section - NOT a residential code section that I'm using for a restaurant!

Best .

 

[north star]

% ~ %

MtnArch,

If I may interject some thoughts here... while the plan checker in your application

is being very difficult & arrogant,...this your opportunity to rise above his level,

...persevere, and work thru it in a professional manner.

It is so easy for anyone \ everyone to take "the low road".

Show him that you WILL NOT lower your own standards down to his.

Let your little light shine my Forum friend !

FWIW, ...there are 2 types of people in this world.........Those that light up

a room when they enter it, and those that light up a room when they leave it.

% ~ %

 

[MASSDRIVER]

% ~ %.there are 2 types of people in this world.........Those that light up

a room when they enter it, and those that light up a room when they leave it.

% ~ %

I prefer to be much like Sauron, generating an impenetrable cloud of doom o'er the land, with a powerful eye to melt the souls of my enemy.

Brent

 

[MASSDRIVER]

Sometimes we have to draw a line in the sand. Nothing personal mind you. I am nobody's servant.

Of course not. Not yet anyway.

My point is that some are put in a position of authority, and should have an attitude of problem solving, rather than personal power plays.

Brent.

 

[north star]

~ : ~ : ~

" I prefer to be much like Sauron, generating an impenetrable cloud of doom o'er the land, with a powerful eye to melt the souls of my enemy. "

C`mon Brentster, ...say it ain't so !........That danged skirt of yours ispolluting your soul...........Go put on some "Man Britches" ! :-D

~ : ~ : ~

 

[MASSDRIVER]

It works homey!

I'm actually a nice guy. You just have to ask the right people.

Brent.

 

[MtnArch]

% ~ %MtnArch,

If I may interject some thoughts here... while the plan checker in your application

is being very difficult & arrogant,...this your opportunity to rise above his level,

...persevere, and work thru it in a professional manner.

% ~ %

And that's the way I've responded - stating merely the facts and pointing out where he has mis-applied the code. I haven't called him names (other than here), I've been respectful, and have NOT included the CBO on my e-mailed responses. If he pulls anymore irrelevant issues or code cites, though, I will.

 

[Frank]

You guys started it with all this "Protect and serve" crap, everybody knows that you are just there for an easy job and can retire in a few years, the papers are full of stories of "public servants" retiring at 50 with enormous pensions and other benefits, all of our cities are in trouble, I say flat out welsh on the pensions. ¹ http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-rahm-emanuel-property-tax-increase-budget-met-0923-20150922-story.html

Now wait a minute--I had to wait till I was 56 to retire after 30 years.

 

[Builder Bob]

You guys started it with all this "Protect and serve" crap, everybody knows that you are just there for an easy job and can retire in a few years, the papers are full of stories of "public servants" retiring at 50 with enormous pensions and other benefits, all of our cities are in trouble, I say flat out welsh on the pensions.

Can you explain the benefits to this person who was working when this happened..... I am sure that she is set for life with a $38,000/yr income with State retirement -

http://www.scnow.com/news/local/article_85010726-e7b4-11e5-9646-734cca28bbef.html

 

[tmurray]

I think many people hear about the higher paying salaries of the senior management in government and assume that everyone gets paid that much. One need only look to the career section of this website to see how much people involved in building inspection make. I would assume most other departments have similar salaries. Do I get a pension? Yes, I have a non-indexed, shared risk pension that I get penalized on if I retire before the age of 65 and I am very thankful for it because many people do not have a pension. If people really thought the job is so easy and they could do it and it pays so well, they would be doing it. They're not doing it because it's not those things. On either sides of the counter. I could never be a contractor and I have contractors tell me all the time they couldn't do my job. There is a common respect there. We're all here because we want to better our trades and provide the best service we possibly can. No one on this site is the contractor who doesn't care or the building official enforcing their own version of the code. Sometimes it's important that we remember that.

I've got no problem with people blowing off steam over a plan examiner that's quoting the wrong sections of the code the same way I have no problem with a building official complaining about the code violations and the complete lack of professionalism on a job site. This is a great place to find like minded individuals who care about the industry and want it to improve.

Builder Bob, I do hope your friend has an easy road to recovery. Driving while under the influence is one thing that I think we can all agree on is completely unconscionable.

 

[ADAguy]

38K goes how far?

If you have no house payments, credit cards, live in the backwoods, etc.