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Ungraded lumber

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bill1952

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Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,115
Location
Clayton NY
Is NY the only state or jurisdiction that allows the use of ungraded lumber for the framing of one and two family dwellings?

This exception is inserted in 502.1.1, 602.1.1, and 802 1.1:

Exception: Dimension lumber which is neither identified by a grade mark nor issued a certificate of inspection by a lumber grading or inspection agency may be used for load-bearing purposes under the following conditions when authorized by the authority having jurisdiction:
  1. The producing mill shall sell or provide the lumber directly to the ultimate consumer or the consumer's contract builder for use in an approved structure.
  2. The producing mill shall certify in writing to the consumer or contract builder on a form to be produced by the authority having jurisdiction that the quality and safe working stresses of such lumber are equal to or exceed No. 2 grade of the species in accordance with the conditions set forth in DOC PS 20. Such certification shall be filed as part of the building permit application.
 
bill1952 said:
Is NY the only state or jurisdiction that allows the use of ungraded lumber for the framing of one and two family dwellings?

This exception is inserted in 502.1.1, 602.1.1, and 802 1.1:

Exception: Dimension lumber which is neither identified by a grade mark nor issued a certificate of inspection by a lumber grading or inspection agency may be used for load-bearing purposes under the following conditions when authorized by the authority having jurisdiction:
  1. The producing mill shall sell or provide the lumber directly to the ultimate consumer or the consumer's contract builder for use in an approved structure.
  2. The producing mill shall certify in writing to the consumer or contract builder on a form to be produced by the authority having jurisdiction that the quality and safe working stresses of such lumber are equal to or exceed No. 2 grade of the species in accordance with the conditions set forth in DOC PS 20. Such certification shall be filed as part of the building permit application.
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This in effect has the mill issuing a certificate of inspection.

In many states this is a non-issue since lumber is usually purchased from a lumberyard that only carries graded lumber
 
Mark K said:
In many states this is a non-issue
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I can count on one hand the number of inspectors that check grade stamps. Unless you find the words Select Structural on the plans it's a matter of spotting the ugly looking lumber.

www.lampertlumber.com

Guide to the Different Lumber Grades | Lampert Lumber

Use this guide to help identify the different types of lumber and learn which ones will be useful for which projects.
www.lampertlumber.com www.lampertlumber.com
 
Around here, a lot of Amish communities and they all produce sawn lumber - mostly white pine, some hemlock - 1x6 to 1x12 and 2x4 to 2x12 - mostly 16'; one near me is offering to 24'. A dozen within 15-20 miles. Loggers from Adirondacks.

ICE said:
I can count on one hand the number of inspectors that check grade stamps.
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You don't think they'd look if they saw rough sawn? And can you buy kiln dried lumber - normal nominal sizes - without a grade stamp? Any lumber yard, building supply, if big box store selling ungraded lumber? I thought this was purely like from Amish or those few who saw their own. (No conflict of interest there.)
 
I have a few thousand pictures of framing yet I can't find a picture of a grade stamp on any of it.

IMG_4686.JPG
 
Maine, sort of...we can use onsite-sawn lumber. Although the code states - "the materials must be of sufficient quality to be adequate for the purpose intended and must adhere to the provisions of these Codes". So I guess is puts the onus on the builder.
 
Phil C said:
Maine, sort of...we can use onsite-sawn lumber. Although the code states - "the materials must be of sufficient quality to be adequate for the purpose intended and must adhere to the provisions of these Codes". So I guess is puts the onus on the builder.
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Nice to see the great State of Maine on here! Love Bath and have friends in Phippsburg..
 
I am working for Siskiyou County in Northern California. And for approximately 20 years or more Siskiyou County has been allowing the use of site milled lumber for residential buildings. The lumber was always assumed to be minimum of #2 milled to a full size 3x or larger with no limits for its use. This was never addressed, reviewed or approved in the Siskiyou County Building Code. We are now trying to move forward and properly address this issue. Siskiyou County building design loading is per a case study (required by code) is 40psf or 60psf flat roof snow loading with no reduction for slope.

We have researched the 2022 CBC specifically Section 2301.1, 2303.1.1.1 it does addresses this topic and gives a solution. We have also researched Western Lumber Products, American Soft Woods Grading Document DOC PS 20. But the county management because of various pressure wants to allow the use of site milled lumber as #2 without any restrictions, definitions or parameters for its use. No grading testing whatsoever.

My questions are.
  1. Siskiyou County managers have requested that we allow site milled ungraded lumber to be used for residential buildings. There thinking is to allow fire victims the use of lumber from their own property milled on site for construction. With the snow load as required in the county we are having difficulty justifying the use of ungraded lumber for the structures without have it properly graded and certified. We could limit the areas of use to blocking, non-load bearing walls, but we may get some push back from management.
  2. Has any jurisdictions in this forum adopted the use of site milled lumber in the past to assist fire victims?
  3. If so, is there any back up documentation allowing and or defining the use of ungraded lumber for structural members?
Any assistance will be greatly appreciated, thank you for your time.
 
Philip Oates said:
I am working for Siskiyou County in Northern California. And for approximately 20 years or more Siskiyou County has been allowing the use of site milled lumber for residential buildings. The lumber was always assumed to be minimum of #2 milled to a full size 3x or larger with no limits for its use. This was never addressed, reviewed or approved in the Siskiyou County Building Code. We are now trying to move forward and properly address this issue. Siskiyou County building design loading is per a case study (required by code) is 40psf or 60psf flat roof snow loading with no reduction for slope.

We have researched the 2022 CBC specifically Section 2301.1, 2303.1.1.1 it does addresses this topic and gives a solution. We have also researched Western Lumber Products, American Soft Woods Grading Document DOC PS 20. But the county management because of various pressure wants to allow the use of site milled lumber as #2 without any restrictions, definitions or parameters for its use. No grading testing whatsoever.

My questions are.
  1. Siskiyou County managers have requested that we allow site milled ungraded lumber to be used for residential buildings. There thinking is to allow fire victims the use of lumber from their own property milled on site for construction. With the snow load as required in the county we are having difficulty justifying the use of ungraded lumber for the structures without have it properly graded and certified. We could limit the areas of use to blocking, non-load bearing walls, but we may get some push back from management.
  2. Has any jurisdictions in this forum adopted the use of site milled lumber in the past to assist fire victims?
  3. If so, is there any back up documentation allowing and or defining the use of ungraded lumber for structural members?
Any assistance will be greatly appreciated, thank you for your time.
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Are there any documented structural failures resulting from the use of ungraded lumber in this county? There are not here in NY as far as I can tell. If anything the buildings are more robust.
 
Our state by law automatically made all certified inspectors official lumber graders without any training. If I did have to grade lumber, I would be safe and just call it the weakest species and grade in the code book, #3 southern pine.

I don't know by being an official lumber grader means that I don't need go by the grade printed on the lumber if I don't want to.
 
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ICE said:
I have a few thousand pictures of framing yet I can't find a picture of a grade stamp on any of it.
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IMG_4686.JPG

It's odd that nobody noticed something strange about this. Oh I get it, you are resisting thread drift.

The best part of this is that the splice is supported from the rafters and the rafters are braced from the splice.
 
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Well, I noticed the dude actually had plans, no grade marks and the ceiling joist not landing on a bearing wall...did I miss anything?

And the god awful green paint!
 
Worked at a lumberyard when I was in high school, we sold Mill Certified plywood for economy reasons. The sheeting typically had defects like football patches missing or sheets not being square. The horse people loved it, they could line their horse stalls with it and not care if their beast kicks holes in it. They would come back and ask for more.

Lately I have seen less and less stamping, hard to find grade marks and Doug-Fir spotted with mold. But we look for the grade stamps here.
 
bill1952 said:
Around here, a lot of Amish communities and they all produce sawn lumber - mostly white pine, some hemlock - 1x6 to 1x12 and 2x4 to 2x12 - mostly 16'; one near me is offering to 24'. A dozen within 15-20 miles. Loggers from Adirondacks.


You don't think they'd look if they saw rough sawn? And can you buy kiln dried lumber - normal nominal sizes - without a grade stamp? Any lumber yard, building supply, if big box store selling ungraded lumber? I thought this was purely like from Amish or those few who saw their own. (No conflict of interest there.)
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Little drift here...but related (maybe?). I just returned from central PA again, and the town I spent a fair bit of my youth in is experiencing a tremendous influx of Amish, far more than when I was there. But, when I was there, there was no adopted code or building department. Now there is, and I wondered what/if/how any inspections or codes applied to the Amish. Case in point, I went out to an Amish homestead that was previously in my family, and noticed their giant lumber mill operation, where they are getting the lumber for all the giant houses and barns they are building. (They also recently bought several huge (if not antique) metal milling machines, presses, lathes etc. from us for their new fabricating shop....built out of that lumber.) Most industrious group of people I have ever known.
 
My first 4 story wood-framed apartment project was in 1995. The structural engineer called for #2 studs on load-bearing walls. I (the architect) came out to the job site and found the framing on the first floor was stamped “standard and better”.

The contractor tried to argue that the “and better” meant that it included #2, so I should be happy. I said, what if you paid for gas that was 92 octane, but instead they told you you should be happy with “85 or better”?
I told them they could either tear it all out, or contract with the mill to come out and stamp all the stud and plates that qualified at #2.

They tore it all down and rebuilt. I went out and saw when the 3rd wall was being rebuilt, and again I saw “standard and better”. So they tore it down again, and this time they got it right.

Ever since that project, I ALWAYS look at the grade stamps.
 
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