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unlisted microbrewery burners

Discussion in 'Commercial Fuel Gas Codes' started by klarenbeek, May 6, 2013.

  1. klarenbeek

    klarenbeek Silver Member

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    A local pub wants to start brewing their own beer, so they ordered a small brewing setup, which basically amounts to 2 large kettles- about 40 gal. each- sitting on a burner assembly. The burner assembly is basically two open burners mounted in an aluminum frame. The gas valve, spark igniter, and control panel are listed, but neither the burners or the assembly as a whole are not. Anybody else run into a setup like this?

    It sounds like the burner setup is a custom built assembly, which makes it understandable why the entire assembly is'nt listed. I would probably be more willing to accept if at least the burners themselves were listed.
     
  2. fireguy

    fireguy Gold Member

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    looking on my commercial appliance parts book, I see no mention of listed or classified burner parts.
     
  3. Frank

    Frank Sawhorse

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    Does your adminstrative section include industrial equipment within the scope of the building code or is that an issue for OSHA or state equivalent. In Virginia that equipment is outside the scope of the building code.
     
  4. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    I don't know that I would consider 2 burners for brewing an "industrial" site.

    As to the original question, tough one. Mechanical, Fuel Gas Codes speak to listed equipment, but having several in my jurisdiction, fortunately started under legacy codes under someone else as AHJ, I haven't had to make the decision.

    We have not had any issues with the ones in use, and there is a multitude of them in CO, but............guess you could always fall back on alternate methods, depending on your comfort level.
     
  5. righter101

    righter101 Gold Member

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    Well, we are running in to this issue and it looks like it didn't get a whole lot of discussion here.

    We have a local micro-brewery that has 2 large kettles with a 440k burner and an 880k burner. Contacted the mfg. and they basically said that they buy the burner cast part from china then drill it out and put in their own orifices for use.

    Not listed, not tested other than that it works.

    My reading of the IFGC and definition of an "appilance" would lead me to conclude that this needs to be listed and labeled.

    Thoughts??
     
  6. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    $ = = $

    Have the Fire Chief or Fire Marshall in your AHJ review it and possibly

    approve without the listing.

    $ = = $
     
    #6 north star, Sep 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2013
  7. Architect1281

    Architect1281 Gold Member

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    Show me you not only took bu passed the tests required

    SECTION 623 (IFGC) COOKING APPLIANCES

    623.1 Cooking appliances. Cooking appliances that are designed for permanent installation, including ranges, ovens,

    stoves, broilers, grills, fryers, griddles, hot plates and barbecues, shall be tested in accordance with ANSI Z21.1, ANSI

    Z21.58 or ANSI Z83.11 and shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions.

    Had a wonderful Indian Cusine using Tandoor ceramic cookers that came two ways.

    1. Listed Tested and so certified.

    2. Not listed Not Tested and No verification.

    Guess which one the owner installed and significantly altered fullo o holes and re-routed the gas through..

    No 2 the cheaper. ?? The Price is Right the compliance is missing.....
     
  8. Architect1281

    Architect1281 Gold Member

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    And I new this was here but need to find it - General is always a good place to look

    301.3 Listed and labeled.

    Appliances << Yeah it be one of them >>> regulated by this code (623) shall be listed and labeled for the application in which they are used unless otherwise approved in accordance with Section 105. The approval of unlisted appliances in accordance with Section 105 shall be based upon approved engineering evaluation.

    301.4 Labeling. Labeling shall be in accordance with the procedures set forth in Sections 301.4.1 through 301.4.2.3. < there's a bunch of them >>>

    So the above postings' Tandoor Pots were removed
     
  9. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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  10. Architect1281

    Architect1281 Gold Member

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    Turkey Cookers are listed in the WalMart Caming section as FIRE STARTERS.

    The Building Official can approve anything........

    APPROVED. Acceptable to the building official or authority having jurisdiction.

    Trust but verify
     
  11. righter101

    righter101 Gold Member

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    I am familiar with 623 but these burners aren't really "permanent". they could be moved outside or to a new location pretty easily.

    I think they should be listed and labeled. I did put a request out to the FM to get their opinion.

    I'm not real comfortable with a modificaiton without some sort of documentation of testing or substantial equivalency to the UL testing.
     
  12. righter101

    righter101 Gold Member

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    The turkey cooker you show is CSA certified, but listed for outdoor use only.

    The burners wer are looking at have no listing whatsoever. Pretty much on par with home made moonshine equipment.

    Used indoors. That is the concern.
     
  13. Rider Rick

    Rider Rick Silver Member

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    righter101,

    I want to understand you concern.

    Is it with using an outside burner inside?

    The burner in question is a 8" to 14" ring with anywhere from 20 to 40 little one torch flames that make up a burner very hot when all of them are burning at once on the ring?

    I think these burners have been around for a while and are used in home brewing and wok cooking.

    I don't know of any problems and I know they do a good job to heat up a lot of water in a very short time.
     
  14. righter101

    righter101 Gold Member

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    My concern is that it is unlisted. The listing and testing procedures are supposed to be our guide that a certain set of standards has been met for the equipment.

    In the event of equipment failure involving propane, the consequences can be deadly and catastrophic. The codes seem written with a litany of exceptions so I was thinking that if some unlisted equipment was ok, it would say so by exception.

    My concern is for the safety of the occupants and possibly the nearby buisnesses.
     
  15. Rider Rick

    Rider Rick Silver Member

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    Righter101,

    I have felt the same way about propane where because it's heavier than air and collects in low areas if there is a leak.

    But if you do a gas line leak test and there is an exhaust hood and make-up air I would approve it.

    But this is me.

    I own three of these kind of burners and have used them and I don't have any issues. It is a very basic design for heating water and have not had of any problems.

    I know this is a common sense approach and not everyone in the building code enforcement feels comfortable with it but you are on an island and could to be a little flexible with the code if you wish to make this kind of build work if it is safe.
     
  16. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    If dealing with propane, maybe have a propane company check it

    See what they think and assure it has the correct jets
     
  17. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    = = | = =

    In this jurisdiction, I would defer to the FCO.......It is his resources that will

    respond to an event [ when / if there is one ].......If he believes the burners

    to be safe enough to use without a listing, then he can approve them.

    = = | = =
     
  18. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    but it kind of falls under some other code than the IFC

    Just because fire is involved does not always mean the fire department is the most knowledgeable
     
  19. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    ~ ~ | ~ ~



    Agreed, but they WILL be the ones to respond, and IMO,it just makes sense [ in this jurisdiction ] for him to approve

    its use, ...even without a listing.

    ~ ~ | ~ ~
     
  20. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    I can agree conference with fire

    And make a joint decision
     

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