Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

[hlfireinspector]

I do not like to deal with existing building issues unless I feel it presents a distinct hazard to life. I have a 2 story 16 unit stick built(truss roof and floors) apartment building built to the 1994 SBC ( Standard Building Code).I have 18 buildings in this complex that are effected and have been told I have 18 more building in another complex that this will effect, all owned by same company. I have been working on this issue for 4 years. The company called for a zoning letter to refinance and I tagged the letter with outstanding violations. The issue I have is the exterior stairs ceiling has only vinyl siding between the stair enclosure and the attic.This was brought to my attention because we had high winds that blew the vinyl out of the stair enclosure and then the balcony area.In the SBC section 1006.2.4 the Exterior stairs shall be seperated from the interior of the building by walls having not less than 1 hour fire rating and fixed or self closing protectives as required for enclosed stairs. Then goes on to say 10 foot each side horizontally and vertically shall be protected and any openings in that 10 foot to be 3/4 hour rated. All I asked the company to do was take down the vinyl ceiling put a layer of 5/8 sheetrock up to seperate the attic from the corridor and they could even put the vinyl back up. The stairs have unrated windows, doors that are not rated and do not have self closers. The walls are covered with vinyl siding that has been melted many times by BBQ grills. The company refuses to work with me and the Fire Chief is going to the city attonery tuesday with the issue. The building dept has dropped out and left me hanging. We have the 2006 IFC and other ICC codes adopted. The building owner says the building was constructed to the 1994 SBC and it met thtat code when constructed. I have proven that to be incorrect. I am looking at 2006 IFC 1027.1 and declaring this building was not conforming to the building code under which it was built and that it presents a distinct life hazard. The only issue I see having problems with is section 1027.19 Exception #1 Seperation from the building interior of the building is not required for buildings that are two stories or less above grade where the level of exit discharge is the first story above grade. Any help???????????????????????

 

[brudgers]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

My thoughts:

1. if your jurisdiction issued a permit, inspected the construction, and then issued a CO for the buildings back in the 90's, it's a hard sell to say that the buildings didn't meet code at the time. Because on the face of it, they did in the opinion of your Building Department at the time.

2. Adding a layer of 5/8" gypsum is not good fire protection over the long term for an exterior application. If wind took down the vinyl it will blow rain onto the ceiling.

3. Holding the refinancing hostage is bad public policy.

 

[TJacobs]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

I agree with your attempt at correcting an obvious error. It clearly does not comply with the 1994 SBC at this time. Maybe it did when it was built. Maybe when the damage was done it wasn't repaired correctly. The question is are you trying to get it to comply with the code when it was built or the code in effect today? If you are trying to get it back into compliance with the 1994 SBC I think you have a case. I would stick with "why aren't the buildings in compliance with the code in effect at the time they were built?"

The fire code official can not waiver in the interest of public safety, no matter who supposedly erroneously approved it.

 

[Coug Dad]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

Is each dwelling unit served by one or two of these stairs?

 

[hlfireinspector]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

Thanks for the reply. Just feel that now I have knowledge of the danger I need to take action. I was severely burned in 2002 in the collapse of an unrated exterior stair, flow to the burn center and spent 4 months recovering from 3rd degree burns. I look very closely at stair enclosures now. I noticed that section 1027 Existing Building Exits has been removed from 2009 code. I have some knowledge of the inspection process that was being conducted at that time period and it was not pretty. I also have buildings that the CO is being released with the fire department refusing to sign off now and have no records to prove this did not happen then. I have always had the impression that if the building was not legally constructed to the code at that time that it is a illegal non-conforming building and if a life hazard exist it is my responsibly to try to abate it. Answer to Coug Dad it has single stair. 1/2 buildings have open front with stairs acrooss front and other 1/2 has corridor that is about 20 foot into the building and closed on the building end. Have been into attic and they have some type of wall( not fire rated nor resist passage of smoke)between each teant. Wall constructed out of scraps ( sheetrock, foam insulation,ect) Feel this walll was a after thought to prevent teant from climbing though scuttle and dropping though schutte next door. The stairwell has one side in attic with this wall.

Just to let everyone know this is round 2 with this company. Years back called for zoning letter on other complex tagged it with outstanding violation of fire flow of less that 500 GPM in complex. Water main was being fed from residental 6" dead end. Won battle and 2nd tie in was made fire flow went to almost 2000 GPM with any one building req. 3000 GPM. 2nd water main was not there when apartments was constructed.

 

[TJacobs]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

Thanks for the reply. Just feel that now I have knowledge of the danger I need to take action. I was severely burned in 2002 in the collapse of an unrated exterior stair, flow to the burn center and spent 4 months recovering from 3rd degree burns. I look very closely at stair enclosures now. I noticed that section 1027 Existing Building Exits has been removed from 2009 code. I have some knowledge of the inspection process that was being conducted at that time period and it was not pretty. I also have buildings that the CO is being released with the fire department refusing to sign off now and have no records to prove this did not happen then. I have always had the impression that if the building was not legally constructed to the code at that time that it is a illegal non-conforming building and if a life hazard exist it is my responsibly to try to abate it. Answer to Coug Dad it has single stair. 1/2 buildings have open front with stairs acrooss front and other 1/2 has corridor that is about 20 foot into the building and closed on the building end. Have been into attic and they have some type of wall( not fire rated nor resist passage of smoke)between each teant. Wall constructed out of scraps ( sheetrock, foam insulation,ect) Feel this walll was a after thought to prevent teant from climbing though scuttle and dropping though schutte next door. The stairwell has one side in attic with this wall.Just to let everyone know this is round 2 with this company. Years back called for zoning letter on other complex tagged it with outstanding violation of fire flow of less that 500 GPM in complex. Water main was being fed from residental 6" dead end. Won battle and 2nd tie in was made fire flow went to almost 2000 GPM with any one building req. 3000 GPM. 2nd water main was not there when apartments was constructed.

Congrats on the victory...suppression companies at 03:00 will now have a fighting chance...

 

[Coug Dad]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

I do not know what your buildings look like, but the SBC permitted two story Group R buildings to be served by a single stair if a maximum of 4 dwelling units used the stair, the dwelling units were less than 3,500 square feet each and the building was only two stories in height. The maximum travel distance from the door to the dwelling unit to the entry to the stair was 30 feet. It is difficult to determine if the buildings were built in accordance with the codes in effect at the time without more information. Have the owner provide the original drawings that had the basis of design documented or have them recreate it.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

I don't have SBC 1994, but SBC 1997 1006.2.4 exception 1 says:

Exterior stairways may be unprotected when serving an exterior exit access balcony which has two exterior stairways remotely located as required in 1006.2.2.

exception 2 of the same section says:

Such protection is not required in two-story buildings where there is a second exit remotely located as required in 1006.2.2..

I will add that neither of these sections is marked as a revision from the previous code (SBC 1994).

If you want to get the call right, start with the assumption that the plans are conforming.

 

[hlfireinspector]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

I don't have SBC 1994, but SBC 1997 1006.2.4 exception 1 says:Exterior stairways may be unprotected when serving an exterior exit access balcony which has two exterior stairways remotely located as required in 1006.2.2.

exception 2 of the same section says:

Such protection is not required in two-story buildings where there is a second exit remotely located as required in 1006.2.2..

I will add that neither of these sections is marked as a revision from the previous code (SBC 1994).

If you want to get the call right, start with the assumption that the plans are conforming.

Meets neither of the above. single stair serving 2 apartments on second floor and 2 on first floor. The loss of the plastic siding at the ceiling would prevent exiting from any apartment as would the loss of any door or unrated windows. If they flee to the balcony on the second floor the same will happen. They will be wrapped by falling,flaming siding. Only choice is to jump from 2nd floor window.

Had a call from complex owner a few hours ago and they are reviewing my response again. I will stand that the building was not built to the current code at the time and that is what I am going to push for. Included in this battle is the posting of TRUSS marking signs on each building.

 

[Coug Dad]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

The SBC did have provision to permit four dwelling units to be served by a single stair. If you are going to order modifications, you should be certain that the building did not meet the code under which it was built.

 

[hlfireinspector]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

The SBC did have provision to permit four dwelling units to be served by a single stair. If you are going to order modifications, you should be certain that the building did not meet the code under which it was built.

Was that single stair req. to be seperated from the interior by fire rating? I can not find any execptions to the fire rating of stairs in R2 in the 1994 SBC. I have no problem with single stair just that it is not protected from a fire in the attic melting the siding in the stair ceiling and dropping onto persons exiting the building or firefighters entering the building. We have already had one firefighter that this happen to on a SFD. They hit him with a hose stream and the siding hardened around his head.

Qoute from Residental Fire Codes BB Ill. fire deathes

In all, 30 people were inside the building when the fire broke out. Cicero officials say they are investigating whether the exits were up to code.

Little late now!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Coug Dad]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

There was a requirement for a separation from the dwelling units, but not from the structure above.

You are the latest of a long line of AHJ's responsible for these buildings. If you are going to question your predecessors you should make 200% sure you are right and they were wrong. Were the buildings built with permits, inspections, and Certificates of Occupany issued by you, the AHJ, albeit not necessiarily you personally? If so, don't you have a professional curtesy to assume they knew what they were doing at the time? Hind sight is easy, but not always correct, unless you understand fully how the legacy codes were enforced. You would want the same courtesy from you successors 20 years from now.

What is the distict hazard to life of siding above the stairs? If there is a fire inside the stairway large enough to cause failure of the structure above it is very unlikely occupants of the dwelling units could use the stairs for egress.

I do not have enough information to make an informed code based opinion, but it also sounds like you do not either to have cause to require modifications.

 

[cda]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

even though you do not have a helpful building dept, do they say it met or meets code???

I gues another question is does it meet present code, in that can it be built the same way under your present code??

last suggestion hire third party??? to evaluate has to be cheaper than an attorney

 

[brudgers]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

As I said, if you assume it's correct then you are far more likely to make the correct call.

On the other hand, if you've already made up your mind then you'll tend interpret everything to support your position and dismiss everything that doesn't.

At the point where the vinyl siding is flaming and dripping, it is expected that jumping out a window may be the safest course of action...that's why EERO's are required.

 

[hlfireinspector]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

There was a requirement for a separation from the dwelling units, but not from the structure above. You are the latest of a long line of AHJ's responsible for these buildings. If you are going to question your predecessors you should make 200% sure you are right and they were wrong. Were the buildings built with permits, inspections, and Certificates of Occupany issued by you, the AHJ, albeit not necessiarily you personally? If so, don't you have a professional curtesy to assume they knew what they were doing at the time? Hind sight is easy, but not always correct, unless you understand fully how the legacy codes were enforced. You would want the same courtesy from you successors 20 years from now.

What is the distict hazard to life of siding above the stairs? If there is a fire inside the stairway large enough to cause failure of the structure above it is very unlikely occupants of the dwelling units could use the stairs for egress.

I do not have enough information to make an informed code based opinion, but it also sounds like you do not either to have cause to require modifications.

Now I see through your eyes. 1994 SBC section 1006.2.4 Does say this protection shall extend from the ground to a point 10 foot above the topmost landing or the roofline,whichever is lower. As you stated the seperation is from the INTERIOR of the building. If the attic is not considered the interior then the ceiling is not req. to be rated as long as the ceiling of the apartment is rated. If they go to the 10 foot line they would meet code with no ceiling and nothing would change but a higher wall. My guess for the 10 foot rule is to prevent fire lap over just like the old fire walls.The unrated windows and doors are ???????????????? questionable as a distinct fire hazard at best.

 

[hlfireinspector]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

even though you do not have a helpful building dept, do they say it met or meets code???I gues another question is does it meet present code, in that can it be built the same way under your present code??

last suggestion hire third party??? to evaluate has to be cheaper than an attorney

1. Building dept. said it's in the red book your problem.

2. Could not be built that way today. R2 sprinkler and rated for one stair exits, but IFC 1027.19 exception 1 is my defense in court.

3. Third party hired by city always hangs me out to dry. 3rd party changed the occupancy of a building from F1 to F2 (with 2 engineers stating they can't do that ) to prevent the req. of smoke and heat vents.

 

[hlfireinspector]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

Maybe need to start new thread

Define interior vs exterior

If you use the paint thats easy.

If attic is not interior is it exterior??????????????????????????? :twisted:

Edit :

EXTERIORWALL ENVELOPE. A system or assembly of

exterior wall components, including exterior wall finish materials,

that provides protection of the building structural members,

including framing and sheathing materials, and

conditioned interior space, from the detrimental effects of the

exterior environment.

2006 IBC 1402

 

[brudgers]

Re: Unrated exit distinct hazard to life?

All these interpretations seem to have been well within the discretion of the building official at the time.