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WFCM and hip and valley beam sizes

Sifu

SAWHORSE
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
3,318
Wood Frame Construction Manual Table 3.28-Hip and valley beam sizes (prescriptive design) gives spans and sizes for certain beam sizes. The only single ply member it lists is a 2x6. Anybody know why? Are there no values for single ply 2x10 or 2x12? There are values for those members in the ridge beam table, 3.29A.
 
My understanding is the table does not provide you with values for individual members, it provides minimum sized framing members for the hip/valley area based upon the roof live load/ground snow load and the roof dead load. For example for a hip that is 17' long, with a ground snow load of 30 psf and a roof dead load of 10 psf you would go to the left side of the table and find your 17' span and go across until you find the column for 30 psf ground snow load and then under it the 10 psf roof dead load. intersect that column with the row from the 17' span and you get a two ply 2x12. Hope that helps.
 
It helps a little, I guess I have been looking at it from the wrong direction but the information (or lack of it) remains the same. I guess the real issue for me is the type of framing I see here everyday. Very common to see single ply 2x10 or 2x12 hips and valleys. It would be helpful to know the limitations of those members. The table in question gives us at least an indication of the limits for some members but not all. I guess I'll continue to treat the 2x10's like 2x6's.
 
GBrackins said:
remember, just because it's always been done a certain way doesn't make it the correct way.
Couldn't agree more. IMO the code is weak when it come to prescriptive stick frame roof systems. It only tells us to support hips and valleys at the top and bottom. It also tells us we can use a single 2x member. I try to improve the framing practices of these roofs but have little prescriptive ammunition to go by. Thats why I turn to the WFCM, it has a little more to go on. I don't have the manual with me but I am guessing now since you reversed the way the table is read that the reason the larger single ply members aren't listed is that the tributary areas would exceed those listed in the table. I'll stick to the table. Thanks for enlightening on how to read that table.
 
FYI, "The Journal of Light Construction" (May 1994) has a well written and easily understood article called "Straight Talk about Hip and Valley Rafters" that explains total roof load and the tributary loads found on Hips and Valleys. This article makes to easy to see if hip and valley rafters are compliant. Well worth the time!! You should be able to retrieve it from their web site for under $5.00.
 
Thanks, When I get time I'll check that out. I have the JLC archives, maybe its in there.
 
As often seen when reviewing residential building plans..........most often by architect-only...............there is no design for hip and valley beams.......nada.
"Reasons" for this result, in general order of importance, include; (1) Basic lack of knowledge, (2) Typical safety margin for usual design methods, and (3) Lack of adequate code provisions.
Typical safety margin often amounts to "luck". Yet, most important is that safety margin does not necessarily apply at all when basic concept is completely missed.........which is that hip beam and valley beam will act as beam element for conditions that may not be easy to control.......and may only occur after many years of service........especially for heavy snow load.
Hip beam tends to be less likely to act as beam element as long as connections at low ends of supported rafters have adequate design shear capacity to resist outward lateral thrust force, especially with snow on roof. Hip beam will then tend to act as ridge board in compression.......not as beam-element. However, even small slippage at low ends of rafters can change this condition very quickly......such that conservative design is important for long-term performance. Also wind uplift force reverses effects.......so that for wind uplift, hip beam essentially acts like valley beam for downward force!

Valley beam should always be designed as beam-element since, for downward force (load) rafters are trying to pull away from valley beam...........and, risk of heavy snow load is much, much greater as snow tends to collect in valley. Also, roof leaks tend to occur in valleys, resulting in decay at low ends and loss of shear capacity for nailed connections.

Other than conceptual issue..........difficulty for effective design is need to consider variable distributed load instead of uniform (constant-value) loading. However, relatively standard design methods are of course available.
Most important are the following issues for design of hip beam and valley beam;
(1) Provision of supports. All-too-often, no support is provided at or near high end of beam. Intermediate supports may also be required.
Each support ...........typically in attic space........must of course also have adequate support.........provided by attic floor framing and elements below.......down to adequate foundation elements.
(2) Consideration of wind uplift force...........which requires adequate connections between hip beam or valley beam and each support.............as well as adequate connection between each support and elements below. For wind uplift force, bottom edge of beam has NO LATERAL BRACING..........which can greatly reduce design bending capacity compared to conditions for downward force. Load Duration Factor of 1.6 (allowable for wind-load case) mitigates this factor somewhat.........but may not be enough, especially for long beams.

For conservative approach...........which is of course warranted............all hip and valley members should be designed as beam-elements.........with adequate strength, stiffness and.........supports!! Horizontal length is applicable for typical design as beam.
 
Amending previous post;
Comment stating........for wind uplift condition............that "no lateral bracing" exists for bottom (compression) edge of hip beam is not correct for flush-framed rafters, which is almost always framing condition.
Key requirement for wind uplift design is design capacity of connections between hip or valley beam and support........and between base of support and other supporting elements.

Additional issue;
Some designs show extension of valley beam up to main ridge beam.......instead of using column at high ends of valley beams (and lower ridge beam). Such design is almost always grossly flawed due to; (1) Lack of any design for connection between extended valley beam and main ridge beam, which would have to support relatively large design shear force.....and for which geometry of skewed connection is awkward at best, (2) Grossly deficient design capacity for extended valley beam which would then have to support concentrated load from inner end of lower ridge beam and high end of opposite valley beam, (3) Deficient design capacity for main ridge beam which would then have to support large concentrated load from high end of extended valley beam..........if awkward connection could even be made!
 
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