What use group is a high school dining hall- A2 or E?

[blueglobe]

Trying to figure out the bathroom fixture count for a high school dining hall. Is it A2 or E? Using MA plumbing code.

 

[Beniah Naylor]

The whole school building is an E, including the theater, dining hall, etc. Even if those areas are normally an A occupancy of some type, they can be counted as an E with the rest of the building per 303.1.3.

Now, sometimes architects will try to create a building that is an E occupancy, with parts of the building classified as an A occupancy, going with the seperated/nonseparated occupancies like in 508... I'm not sure what they gain by this, but some try to do it that way.

 

[mtlogcabin]

The Occupant Load is calculated based on the use of the room or space. Therefore the dining room OL would be based on the 15 sq ft per person for tables and chairs not a classroom @ 20 per sg ft. It will be very close as the dining hall is assembly and that is based on the net floor area not the gross

 

[blueglobe]

Thanks for the answers so far. Just one clarification- this is a new free-standing building with one use- a dining hall. Other than kitchen, bathroom, and dining areas, there are no other proposed uses in the buidling, no classrooms, libraries, etc. To get the occupant load I will count the chairs, which occupy the entire dining room, and then I will calculate the staff numbers. I don't have a problem figuring out the occupant count- I only want to figure out how many toilet fixtures I need. The numbers are different using A2 use versus an E use. Thanks!

 

[mtlogcabin]

It is an assembly use which has a lower fixture count than an educational. An "E" use is 6 or 7 hours per day whereas a school dining room is occupied for 30 to 60 minutes before a new group of students coming in and the existing group is heading back to the school.

 

[blueglobe]

thanks!

 

[blueglobe]

HI, I made an inquiry at the State Plumbing Board and they told me that the use is E and to use the E toilet fixture counts which amount to a higher number of required urinals. Interesting news.

 

[Beniah Naylor]

IBC 303.1.3 says that a "room or space" that is "associated" with a group E occupancy is not considered a separate occupancy. I could see how the state arrived at their interpretation.

I think it could go either way since it is a separate building not connected to the school, which is certainly an E occupancy.

 

[steveray]

@blueglobe Massachusetts has an old weird code for plumbing.....Welcome to the forum...... What is your role in the project?

303.1.3 Associated with Group E occupancies. A room
or space used for assembly purposes that is associated with
a Group E occupancy is not considered a separate occupancy.

So the use of the building might be just E, but the fixtures should be calculated off of the intended use or OL of the space....


[P] 2902.1 Minimum number of fixtures. Plumbing fixtures
shall be provided in the minimum number as shown in Table
2902.1 based on the actual use of the building or space. Uses
not shown in Table 2902.1 shall be considered individually
by the code official. The number of occupants shall be determined
by this code.

1004.1 Design occupant load. In determining means of
egress requirements, the number of occupants for whom
means of egress facilities are provided shall be determined in
accordance with this section.

 

[Paul Sweet]

I can't imagine a high school building sitting empty for all but a couple hours a day. It will probably also be used as a study hall or something similar.

Are there adequate fixtures for the difference between A & E in other buildings within 500 ft. of the space? (IPC 403.3.1 & 3)

 

[mtlogcabin]

[P] 2902.1 Minimum number of fixtures.
Plumbing fixtures shall be provided in the minimum number as shown in Table 2902.1 based on the actual use of the building or space

It may be an "E" occupancy group under the building code but the actual use for which it is designed is an "A" so therefore the plumbing fixtures should be based on an "A" actual use occupancy

 

[brokenkeys]

Not applicable to the OP but for us Floridians (because you know... Florida), public schools also have to comply with the State Requirements for Educational Facilities (SREF), which is incorporated into Chapter 4 of the Florida Building Code:

453.16.1.1Assembly occupancies.​

Toilet facilities for assembly occupancies (i.e. media centers, gymnasiums, cafetoriums, and auditoriums) are not required to be in addition to the overall required plumbing fixture count.

And:

453.18.1​

Occupant capacity for egress shall be in accordance with Table 1004.5 except as follows:

453.18.1.2Gymnasium.​

The number of fixed and telescopic bench-type bleacher seats —plus the main court area at 15 gross square feet (1.4 m2) per person, plus locker rooms at 5 net square feet (0.5 m2) per person.

 

[Genduct]

It is an assembly use which has a lower fixture count than an educational. An "E" use is 6 or 7 hours per day whereas a school dining room is occupied for 30 to 60 minutes before a new group of students coming in and the existing group is heading back to the school.

Where did you get those very insightful occupancy assumptions? They make perfect sense. Don't remember seeing any of that in the Commentary

 

[mtlogcabin]

Observation and common sense. My grandkids attend a school in another state with a similar lunch room and when we visit we have lunch with them at the school. The lunch period is 35 minutes and the school has 4 lunch periods so the children do not even have time to use a restroom.

 

[Genduct]

Observation and common sense. My grandkids attend a school in another state with a similar lunch room and when we visit we have lunch with them at the school. The lunch period is 35 minutes and the school has 4 lunch periods so the children do not even have time to use a restroom.

I like the way you think!
The NFPA Handbook has commentary like your explanation. Too bad the ICC doesn't publish their background thinking. It would go a long way in discerning the INTENT

IMHO
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