What's Wrong Here?

[conarb]

This is a Loose Tiger question, but others may be able to help. On another forum a young contractor posted this picture and question, the facts are apparently that he is doing unrelated work on the property and the owner wants him to patch the shingles, he wants to know how to patch the shingles (I know, dumb question).


I pointed out that the shingles were the least of the problems, that the location of the meter was a violation of the meter location and posted the PG&E Greenbook showing the PG&E location requirements and suggested calling the PG&E representative, the service is free. For some reason he does not want to call them, I assume because he doesn't want to move the meter. I then pointed out other possible problems like I see no bonding at the meter and asked him to post a larger picture showing the regulator and any existing bonding and driven ground rods, pointing out that when he has a building inspection of any type the inspector will want to see these things. He refuses to call PG&E, or an inspector, or even post a larger picture, this makes me wonder if he's even getting a permit and everybody else is painting me as a troublemaker.

One guy properly pointed out that PG&E has recently installed a Smart Meter so they have accepted the existing illegal location, my response was that PG&E had an unlicensed subcontractor running around slapping millions of those smart meters in ignoring PG&E regulations and codes (I was home when they did mine and I talked to the guy). A guy from San Francisco pointed out that bonding can occur inside the garage at the water heater, I think San Francisco still seriously amends their codes due to tehir unusual soils and zero lot line conditions. But is bonding allowed at areas other than the meter?

This really pisses an old guy like me off, these young contractors that neither own nor have ever seen a utility Greeenbook, and who think regulations are something to avoid if you can.

So my question is, if a Tiger type inspector came across this what could he see from this inadequate picture? If the Tiger were to inspect work in another area of the old home would he even look at something like this? What about all these Smart Meter installations, should they trigger code compliance or are they exempt like allowing solar panels to be installed without engineering the roof to carry the additional weight and wind loads? This is to say nothing about fast tracking permits for solar panels while the rest of us get shove further down the line on the permit wait-list. Are "saving the planet" installations like solar panels and Smart Meters exempt from and take precedence over the traditional health and safety requirements of the codes?

 

[steveray]

r are they exempt like allowing solar panels to be installed without engineering the roof to carry the additional weight and wind loads? This is to say nothing about fast tracking permits for solar panels while the rest of us get shove further down the line on the permit wait-list. Are "saving the planet" installations like solar panels and Smart Meters exempt from and take precedence over the traditional health and safety requirements of the codes?

I can tell you first hand a group of inspectors (including the head of the State) are not rolling over on a lack of engineering on Roof PV! If they can quantify it somehow in the IRC, than we are good, but until that time, they will all be getting engineering analysis...And we don't fast track anyone or give a fee break...

 

[conarb]

Steve;
I can tell you that I see solar panels going on roofs here that are built with roof trusses barely engineered for composition shingle roofs, after the Oakland Hills fire in 1989 lots of people wanted fireproof roofs and something higher quality than composition shingles, in fact many had CC&Rs banning composition roofs, the building departments here were requiring engineering, but those same roofs today are getting the added weight of solar panels without engineering. This is a problem, I used roof trusses earlier in my career, those in the 50s had plywood gussets and are doing fine today, those from the 60s and beyond have gang-nail plates, many of mine have failed and I've had to go back and rebuild them, even with code compliant ventilation and properly graded lumber the struts and chords are twisting causing the roofs to sag, now thye are adding additional weight on them.

I think some of our inspectors here can confirm that they are told by the state to fast-track their permits, I've even read about the state mandate to fast-track in the newspapers.

 

[ICE]

Geez Louise conarb, you highjacked your own thread.

The legislators passed AB2188. It mandates that solar permits be fast tracked. We can require only one inspection. The solar industry has a strong lobby and jurisdictions are treated like a fly in the ointment.

To the picture that you posted. So there is a hole that leads to the underfloor. It should be screened to keep out raccoons. I can't think of a scenario that would include me telling them that they had to do it unless I was buying the building.

The gas meter is the gas company's problem and there is no requirment for bonding at the meter.

 

[conarb]

The gas meter is the gas company's problem and there is no requirment for bonding at the meter.

I can understand that the meter's location is the gas company's problem, but in JAR's thread today you say:

1311.14.2 Bonding of CSST Gas Piping. CSST gas
piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service
grounding electrode system. The bonding jumper shall
connect to a metallic pipe or fitting between the point of
delivery and the first downstream CSST fitting. The
bonding jumper shall be not smaller than 6 AWG copper
wire or equivalent. Gas piping systems that contain one
or more segments of CSST shall be bonded in accordance
with this section. [NFPA 54-12:7.13.2]

https://flic.kr/p/HS83C4
I've always had to bond at the meter, and the utility has a soils map, that map tells them whether you need one or two 6' driven ground rods in addition to and adjacent to the bond at the meter, isn't that the electrical inspector's concern? Not even in the Tiger Code?

 

[ICE]

CSST has its own rules for bonding. Other metallic gas pipe must be bonded but any appliance that has gas and electricity can provide the gas pipe bond via the equipment ground for the appliance. The easy way to bond gas pipe is a jumper from cold to hot to gas pipes at the water heater.

We require two driven rods in all cases but placing them next to a gas meter serves no purpose. The GEC must reach the service equipment....not the gas meter.

 

[conarb]

Tiger:

You are making an inspection on an old home, you come across the meter pictured and see no bonding and no driven rods, what do you say and where do you go from there?

 

[ICE]

Tiger:

You are making an inspection on an old home, you come across the meter pictured and see no bonding and no driven rods, what do you say and where do you go from there?

Why am I there inspecting the old home? It matters. As I mentioned, I wouldn't expect to find a bond at the gas meter. If the house is old enough it may not have a grounded system.....or there may be a uffer.....there might be a water main electrode or a rod that I can't see.

Back to why I am there. Let's say that I am there to inspect a new water heater. I wouldn't be looking at the gas meter or the grounding electrode,system. While I see plenty of wrong stuff I avoid getting involved in all but the dangerous stuff. If I wrote corrections on electrical everywhere I inspect, I could keep,an army of electricians busy.