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Why we do what we do - ceiling collapse

M

MikeC

Silver Member
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
230
Location
NW Pennsylvania
The photos below are from a recent fire in a HUD townhouse complex that was built in the early 70s. Sometime in the distant past, someone installed a second ceiling over the original ceiling. I can only assume that staples wouldn't have enough depth to penetrate through both ceilings, so nails were used instead. Now, because of the tongue and grove / hidden fastener design, the size of the nail heads needed to be small. No glue was used and the nails had about .2 inch heads. I doubt that this was malicious and I image that the installer felt he had done a good job finding an alternate fastener and a good job on the installation of the ceiling system. I am currently assuming that this installation is at least 2 decades old.Anyway, onto the story. A very young child was home alone and sleeping on the couch that is placed against the front wall when the fire started in the next room. A neighbor was alerted by the smoke alarms and rescued the child from the house. The fully staffed fire department is about 1/2 mile away and was on scene within 3 minutes of receiving the dispatch. Upon their arrival the ceiling system had already failed and blocked the front windows and door. There was never any fire in the living room. The only damage is from heat and smoke. It is likely that the neighbor saved the child's life. Firefighters would likely not have been able to find her under the ceiling panels.So, next time somebody wants to do something that isn't quite right, but seems harmless .... think about this post and send them to this post. A simple harmless fastener issue with a ceiling installation almost cost a child her life.I was given permission from the photographer to use copies of these copyrighted photos for training and investigation purposes as long as he was given credit for them.

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looks like celotex. no strength when moistened at all, but you say there was no water applied prior to failure?
 
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The first picture looks like I can see a piece of the ceiling on top of the chair. The second picture begs the question, If the ceiling fell before the FD arrived how come there is no smoke damage to the rest of the ceiling? There is obviously smoke coming out the front door while the FD is applying the water.
 
The ceiling between the kitchen door and the front door is smoke damaged. I can only assume that the ceiling / fasteners faired because of the heat & byproducts (moisture) of combustion. The nail heads were just enough to hold it in place under normal circumstances. It is a celotex type material. The state police fire marshal brought this to my attention, looking for answers on why the ceiling failed so prematurely. I aquired photos from multiple fires in this complex. Single layer ceilings in other units have stayed in place well into fire involvement, preserving the joists above. The only difference was a single layer of ceiling and staples / glue vs. the nails in the failed ceiling.

Fire department personnel reported the ceiling to be down upon opening the front door and trying to break the front windows.
 
So the next door neighbor was babysitting and cooking from their own apartment?

Oh, the young child forgot they left something on the stove.
 
Actually, there is more to the story, but I am unable to post it due to an ongoing investigation. Once it is released, I will post a link here.
 
Now the rest of the story .......

1490 NewsBlog: Charges Filed After Center Street Fire

I still stand by my argument that the ceiling system failed due to improper installation. I have proof that other properly installed ceilings in this complex performed much differently under the same conditions. This improper installation, mixed with other improper actions, could have been deadly.
 
MikeC said:
Now the rest of the story .......1490 NewsBlog: Charges Filed After Center Street Fire

I still stand by my argument that the ceiling system failed due to improper installation. I have proof that other properly installed ceilings in this complex performed much differently under the same conditions. This improper installation, mixed with other improper actions, could have been deadly.
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Maybe so, but why? Not smoke unless it was magic pixie smoke, and not water. Unless the heat on the ceiling hit maybe 200 degrees or so, then maybe, but I have torn that stuff out of old attics that were nailed with finish nails and it didn't exactly fall willingly onto the floor. What's your theory?

Brent.
 
Here are a few more lower quality picture that I took with my cell phone. I think they will show that the temperature at the ceiling was well above 200 degrees. Temperatures of 200 degrees at the ceiling can happen with very small fires. I also think the style of these panels, long strips instead of squares or rectangles, added to the problem .... kind of a domino type effect.

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I have a meeting in the near future with the authority director and the head of maintenance. We are going to discuss how to identify other ceilings that were repaired this way. I have no question that they will address any problems that they find.View attachment 901

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